CougarCorner

Re: Thoughts on the Honor Code

2014-08-18T13:19:54-06:00

Unlike ordinances, BYU is not essential for salvation, and is optional at best. I have no issue with the Honor Code. It's a price you pay to get a phenomenal discount on a world-class education. I also have no issue with people calling for it to be updated either.

I agree with you here Sno but not about the straw man comment. I will grant, however, that times change. By the way,it took me 3 tries to +1 you here.

Statistics: Posted by nuk13 — Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:19 pm

Re: Thoughts on the Honor Code

2014-08-18T13:12:44-06:00

Ok, so, I can't wear a beard at BYU. Fine. At least I can wear my skinny jeans. I won't be seen in public wearing anything other than skinny jeans and flip-flops. Skinny jeans today - a beard tomorrow.
Just don't wear those flip flops at BYUI!
True dat! (BTW, I would not be caught dead wearing skinny jeans. Good grief. )

I probably would be dead from lack of O2.

Statistics: Posted by nuk13 — Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:12 pm

Re: Thoughts on the Honor Code

2014-08-18T10:10:28-06:00

BYU's grooming standards has nothing to do with what happens after you are endowed. As has been pointed out, you can go to the temple with a beard and long hair (and take out all the covenants necessary for salvation) but not take a Chem 101 test at BYU, The honor code is extremely overzealous and if it was enforced in its most strict sense - ie, to the letter - most of the campus would be in jeopardy of losing scholarships.

Also, it is a very good way to discriminate and single out athletes, especially those of different cultures - especially non-members. In my opinion, BYU and the Church should be (and is, in principle and application) rolling out the red carpet to those of different faiths that want to know more about the church and attend school. The honor code isn't in this spirit. When someone shows up to church wearing a cowboy hat, should we be shooting them nasty looks, or should we be giving them a hug? The non-morality portions of the honor code are a very succinct separation from the "love everyone no matter what" approach we have been told to have.

With that said, if you signed it, you should live it as best as you can. But it does need to be reformed and updated to current living levels.
Blue, you have either misunderstood or misrepresented what I wrote. Cheerfully submitting your will to that of a higher authority is probably the best "conditioning" possible for a mission and an endowment. I said nothing about the specifics of the higher authority's will or preference.

Everyone (myself included) will agree that a little facial hair is not a sin or even a poor style choice for many people. The honor code isn't about that. It is about representing the owner of the university in the way He wants to be represented to the world, not the way we want. And as has been said, no one is forced to attend, but He has every right to have a standard for those whose appearance will be affiliated with His church and Him by extension.

Agreed. I guess that begs the question: Is the grooming portion of the honor code God's will, or mans? It seems to me to be out of touch with what I know about the nature of God and His far reaching love for everyone, and seems (to me) to be more in line with what I know about the intolerance, distrust, and controlling qualities of man and their governing bodies.

Statistics: Posted by Brayden Green — Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:10 am

Re: Thoughts on the Honor Code

2014-08-17T16:39:36-06:00

The world is what it is. Reality.

A 21 year old kid answered my ad for free firewood a month ago. Nice kid. He looked like he had crawled right out of the sixties. His father left his mother because he felt he was a woman trapped in a man's body.

Now his dad is a water-girl on the Yewt football team.

Wow - what a unique turn of events!!! (Sorry - couldn't resist)
Great post Cougagbib.

Statistics: Posted by Ddawg — Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:39 pm

Re: Thoughts on the Honor Code

2014-08-17T15:59:32-06:00

BYU's grooming standards has nothing to do with what happens after you are endowed. As has been pointed out, you can go to the temple with a beard and long hair (and take out all the covenants necessary for salvation) but not take a Chem 101 test at BYU, The honor code is extremely overzealous and if it was enforced in its most strict sense - ie, to the letter - most of the campus would be in jeopardy of losing scholarships.

Also, it is a very good way to discriminate and single out athletes, especially those of different cultures - especially non-members. In my opinion, BYU and the Church should be (and is, in principle and application) rolling out the red carpet to those of different faiths that want to know more about the church and attend school. The honor code isn't in this spirit. When someone shows up to church wearing a cowboy hat, should we be shooting them nasty looks, or should we be giving them a hug? The non-morality portions of the honor code are a very succinct separation from the "love everyone no matter what" approach we have been told to have.

With that said, if you signed it, you should live it as best as you can. But it does need to be reformed and updated to current living levels.

Blue, you have either misunderstood or misrepresented what I wrote. Cheerfully submitting your will to that of a higher authority is probably the best "conditioning" possible for a mission and an endowment. I said nothing about the specifics of the higher authority's will or preference.

Everyone (myself included) will agree that a little facial hair is not a sin or even a poor style choice for many people. The honor code isn't about that. It is about representing the owner of the university in the way He wants to be represented to the world, not the way we want. And as has been said, no one is forced to attend, but He has every right to have a standard for those whose appearance will be affiliated with His church and Him by extension.

Statistics: Posted by NebraskaCoug — Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:59 pm

Re: Thoughts on the Honor Code

2014-08-17T12:05:19-06:00

Unlike ordinances, BYU is not essential for salvation, and is optional at best. I have no issue with the Honor Code. It's a price you pay to get a phenomenal discount on a world-class education. I also have no issue with people calling for it to be updated either.

Statistics: Posted by snoscythe — Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:05 pm

Re: Thoughts on the Honor Code

2014-08-17T09:27:30-06:00

BYU's grooming standards has nothing to do with what happens after you are endowed. As has been pointed out, you can go to the temple with a beard and long hair (and take out all the covenants necessary for salvation) but not take a Chem 101 test at BYU, The honor code is extremely overzealous and if it was enforced in its most strict sense - ie, to the letter - most of the campus would be in jeopardy of losing scholarships.

Also, it is a very good way to discriminate and single out athletes, especially those of different cultures - especially non-members. In my opinion, BYU and the Church should be (and is, in principle and application) rolling out the red carpet to those of different faiths that want to know more about the church and attend school. The honor code isn't in this spirit. When someone shows up to church wearing a cowboy hat, should we be shooting them nasty looks, or should we be giving them a hug? The non-morality portions of the honor code are a very succinct separation from the "love everyone no matter what" approach we have been told to have.

With that said, if you signed it, you should live it as best as you can. But it does need to be reformed and updated to current living levels.

Statistics: Posted by Brayden Green — Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Thoughts on the Honor Code

2014-08-17T00:14:09-06:00

I agree with Nebraska.

I have managed as many as 500+ people at one point in time and thousands over my career. I do not hire and fire employees anymore. But, I get asked for references even now. People who ask me to refer people to them know me and rely on me to be consistent about who I would send their way. You could think of that as my brand. My reputation. I would lose my ability to help others - if I ever referred someone that did not meet expectations - including the intangibles of dress and grooming.

It is a rare executive that will take you aside and tell you that your name came up on a list of candidates for promotion but was passed over as "not being a good fit" for an intangible reason. The people in that discussion not giving the thumbs up usually do not even articulate a specific reason in the discussion. Nobody likes lawsuits.

Sometimes it is probably outright discriminatory - but they are not foolish enough to articulate their discrimination. But grooming is not discriminatory in public facing positions or even in highly visible management roles.

I have taken the risk of counseling employees on these intangible matters in cases where I felt the employee would appreciate knowing what I saw holding them back. I never gave that feedback to employees that seemed likely to turn it into the great debate about how unfair the world is.

The world is what it is. Reality.

A 21 year old kid answered my ad for free firewood a month ago. Nice kid. He looked like he had crawled right out of the sixties. His father left his mother because he felt he was a woman trapped in a man's body. Now his dad is Aunt Jean.

He mentioned that he needed a job. I hired him to help me pick up a house full of furniture from Restoration Hardware. He worked hard. Got to know him. Told me how he sends resumes, gets interviews, but never gets hired. He is was attracted to the concept of Restoration Hardware. Wanted to work in their warehouse. They were hiring. They had seen him help me with over 100 pieces of furniture. I told them what a good worker he was. He filled out an application. I knew he would not get hired. Dress. Grooming. I explained to him that he is at the cross roads. Needs to decide whether his individualism is important enough to him for him to continue to live at home, making $100 a month doing side jobs. I told him I will have work at times in my orchard and that I did not care how long his hair was or how he dressed. Every couple of months, I might need him for a day.

He chose his individualism once again. I took him to drop off his application. I reminded him to reflect on what every person he had seen working at that store looked like and conform to the extent he was willing. He did not change a thing. Did not get hired.

Same age as a BYU student. Did not want to hear the message. He listened politely. But chose to be who he feels he is. A nice kid. Non conforming. Under employed. Way under.

Ironically, I asked a small company that picks fruit that had mentioned how hard it is to find workers in this culture of handouts and entitlements if he would give this kid a try - minimum wage - picking fruit. He thought for a minute and then declined. Discrimination imho. But, the stereotype in play in agriculture is that white guys will not do hard work.

Of course, he never came right out and said that.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

Statistics: Posted by Cougarbib — Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:14 am

Re: Thoughts on the Honor Code

2014-08-16T23:12:44-06:00

BYU's dress and grooming standards also help condition and prepare students for the dress and grooming standards that will be imposed on them as missionaries and after they are endowed. Living the honor code even as it relates to dress and grooming are good preparations for important commitments and responsibilities.

Statistics: Posted by NebraskaCoug — Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:12 pm

Re: Thoughts on the Honor Code

2014-08-16T23:05:39-06:00

BYU has a brand to protect.

Whether we personally agree or disagree with the specifics of the dress and grooming standards, this is the key. Missionaries are the same age as BYU students, in fact some of them have been or will be BYU students. Missionaries wear the name of the church and its "owner" on their name tags and so there are dress and grooming standards that are deemed appropriate to represent the institution and he whose name it bears. BYU represents the same institution and therefore its owner. No surprise that the dress and grooming standards are similar.

I own a business that has my name on it. I sat in a training seminar recently for employees in my field, and the trainer discussed dress and grooming as part of her presentation about customer service and sales. She is not LDS, but she emphasized to the employees in the room that they could not have tattoos showing, multicolored hair, or multiple piercings because they are role models to young people, and most importantly, because their dress and grooming choices can't be about them, they are about the owners of the companies they work for, whom they represent. My employees have to be an extension of me, especially at work, but outside of work in the community they represent me and they have to be mindful of that. BYU students absolutely represent the church and The Lord in public and in private, and there will always be dress and grooming standards for representatives of those entities.

Statistics: Posted by NebraskaCoug — Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:05 pm