Different expectations for Basketball and Football

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Re: It's a family affair! So happy for Dalton Nixon

Postby Schmoe » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:41 pm

Gunk wrote:
BroncoBot wrote:
SpoCoug wrote:
Gunk wrote:In basketball there are 345 D1 teams. Top 25 in basketball would put you in the top 7%.

In football, there are 119 Division 1A schools. Top 25 in football would put in the top 21%.


So, a #25 ranking in football should feel about as good as basketball finishing...#72?

Sheer numbers don't matter here. Of the 345 D1 teams, only around 119 even matter.


And how many D1 football teams even matter? Far less than 119. Probably only around 50 at best.


You're really arguing that being top 68 in basketball is as big an accomplishment as being top 25 in football?
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Re: It's a family affair! So happy for Dalton Nixon

Postby Gunk » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:08 pm

hawkwing wrote:What exactly do you propose is the football equivalent of bouncing out of the tournament in the first or second game every year? To me it's the equivalent of going 10+ wins every year in football, so in my mind the two programs are pretty much exactly on par.


I think that's completely subjective with a preference going towards one's sport of preference.

In my mind that isn't a fair comparison.

Going to a BCS bowl and losing to me is more like going to the NCAA basketball tournament and not making it past the first round. NCAA tournament is a national tournament, covered on national TV. Football doesn't really have such, but the closest thing it has are the BCS bowls. No one cares about 10 - 2 seasons, unless you're LSU, USC or something other national football powerhouse.

10 years ago we were giddy if BYU basketball made it to the NCAA tournament. We didn't care what seeding we got as long as we got there. Now, we whine and complain when seeded anything higher than 8. If I recall, only 4 or 5 other NCAA teams currently have a longer streak than BYU in appearing in the NCAA tournament. That's progress.

10 years ago, BYU football was putting up 10 - 2 seasons or close to them and going to the same ho-hum bowls we go to now. No progression. No national level. Sure we get to pat ourselves on the back with the occasional end of season Top 25 ranking (yay...) but whether we went 10 - 2 or 7 - 5 we still went and go to the same caliber of bowl. Now, that's probably more of a statement on the bowl system than BYU, but like I said even if NCAA football implemented a 16-team post season tournament, do you honestly think we'd get in? No way.

BYU basketball on the other hand made it to the Sweet 16 two years ago and will have a shot at it this season again.
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Re: It's a family affair! So happy for Dalton Nixon

Postby Gunk » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:15 pm

Schmoe wrote:
Gunk wrote:
BroncoBot wrote:
SpoCoug wrote:
Gunk wrote:In basketball there are 345 D1 teams. Top 25 in basketball would put you in the top 7%.

In football, there are 119 Division 1A schools. Top 25 in football would put in the top 21%.


So, a #25 ranking in football should feel about as good as basketball finishing...#72?

Sheer numbers don't matter here. Of the 345 D1 teams, only around 119 even matter.


And how many D1 football teams even matter? Far less than 119. Probably only around 50 at best.


You're really arguing that being top 68 in basketball is as big an accomplishment as being top 25 in football?


They're about the same. 68 out of 345 teams puts you in the top 20 percent.

25 out of 119 teams put you in the top 21 percent. So yes, being in the top 68 in basketball is akin to being in the top 25 in football. Geeez...it's basic math...

Top 25 in basketball is a bigger accomplishment than Top 25 in football. You're up against more than twice as many teams.
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Re: It's a family affair! So happy for Dalton Nixon

Postby Cougarbib » Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:06 am

hawkwing wrote:What exactly do you propose is the football equivalent of bouncing out of the tournament in the first or second game every year? To me it's the equivalent of going 10+ wins every year in football, so in my mind the two programs are pretty much exactly on par.

This. Totally agree. But for some reason battling Iona is more exciting than battling Tulsa in football for many fans.

BTW - I think BYU is not only fairly equal in both sports, but pretty good in both sports. How many schools enjoy success in both. Not U, BSU, or TCU or UNLV, New Mexico, or SDSU. They go one way or the other. BYU goes both ways - so to speak.

But please - don't give this x % of Y crap and count every school that can dribble.

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Re: It's a family affair! So happy for Dalton Nixon

Postby Cougarbib » Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:07 am

Schmoe wrote:It really makes no difference to me that there are 200 extra cupcake schools in basketball. If you consider FCS schools for football, since they're also technically Div-I, BYU football outperforms BYU basketball.

And This. Totally agree.

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Re: It's a family affair! So happy for Dalton Nixon

Postby Gunk » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:10 am

Okay, so let me get this right. When evaluating the strength of BYU football it's okay to include weak FCS teams that can barely get the ball over the line; however, when evaluating BYU basketball it's inaccurate to factor in 200 D1 schools that can "dribble." Huh?

Your prejudice for football is really showing.

When was the last time BYU football played in a post season game that was broadcasted over national television, ESPN doesn't count and neither does CBS C because those are cable television stations?

And, beating Iona (awesome game, BTW) allowed BYU basketball to move on and play 3 seed Marquette, which also happened to be ranked 11th in the nation.

When was the last time football played anybody ranked 11th in the post season?

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Re: It's a family affair! So happy for Dalton Nixon

Postby hawkwing » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:25 am

an Independent deal with ESPN, every home game nationally televised, most on ESPN. That's a huge amount of progress, a lot of it brought by those 10 win seasons that you seem to think are so irrelevant.
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Re: It's a family affair! So happy for Dalton Nixon

Postby jacksonman » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:43 am

MAKING the NCAA tournament is about the same as FINISHING in the top 20-25 in Football. Both feel good to the fans but really don't mean much. Beating Iona and then losing to Marquette FELT like our football team beating Tulsa and sneaking into the top 25.

The only difference is that our Basketball team had just lost Jimmer/Emery it was clearly a rebuilding year. The Bball team was a bubble team from the very beginning of the year. The BBall team arguably OVER PERFORMED. It doesn't hurt that we HAD a record-setting comeback victory in the NCAA tournament.

Our Football team, however, had much higher expectations (rightfully so with Utah at home, weak Ole Miss and Texas teams and an otherwise favorable schedule) and grossly under performed, squeaking by Ole Miss on a freak play, giving away the game to Texas, getting thumped by Utah at home, and beating a team like Tulsa to end the year. We were a bubble BCS team from the beginning of the year, and lucked into a 10 win season and top 25 win season.

Both teams are relatively successful. But Basketball is hands down a step or two above the Football program as a whole right now.
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Re: It's a family affair! So happy for Dalton Nixon

Postby Schmoe » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:54 am

Gunk wrote:Okay, so let me get this right. When evaluating the strength of BYU football it's okay to include weak FCS teams that can barely get the ball over the line; however, when evaluating BYU basketball it's inaccurate to factor in 200 D1 schools that can "dribble." Huh?

Your prejudice for football is really showing.

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You've just deconstructed your own argument, let me show you.

Okay, so let me get this right. When evaluating the strength of BYU basketball it's okay to include the 200 weak middle-of-nowhere teams that can barely get the ball through the hoop; however, when evaluating BYU football it's inaccurate to factor in the 122 FCS teams that consistently play and upset FBS schools. Huh?

Your prejudice for basketball is really showing.

See, we're going around in circles and you misunderstood what I was saying. Really, what I am saying is that if you consider how poor the bottom 2/3 of basketball is, and you're counting them in the percentages for how well basketball is doing, you also must include all the Div-1 schools in football when considering the percentages of how well the football team is doing. I really am proud of the basketball team, I brag about them all the time quietly getting it done and not getting enough credit. But when you look at rough numbers, the teams have achieved about equally and there is much more complaining, pressure, and expectations on the football team.
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Re: It's a family affair! So happy for Dalton Nixon

Postby Gunk » Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:55 pm

hawkwing wrote:an Independent deal with ESPN, every home game nationally televised, most on ESPN. That's a huge amount of progress, a lot of it brought by those 10 win seasons that you seem to think are so irrelevant.


I don't think they are irrelevant. I do, however, think that basketball is out performing football on a national level.

I also think our football deal with ESPN is more related to the size of our fan base and the amount of eyeball$ we're able to bring in. So, I guess we're back to the chicken and egg argument over which comes first, healthy fan base brings success or success brings healthy fan base. For the record, I think it's success.

Every home game is not nationally televised. It's televised on BYUtv or ESPN, both require cable subscriptions unless you happen to live in Utah and get BYUtv over the air. National television would be CBS, NBC, ABC, or FOX. True, every basic cable package includes ESPN, though the same can't be said for BYUtv. Again, when was the last time BYU football played on national television in the post season?
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