Why the pass?

[Gunk]

Yet again, poor loss...at home...to a bad team...that effectively removes us from a regular season title (may as well be independent in Basketball too right?)

But wait, KC was sick. Oh, is that like losing your QB to injury?

But wait, we lack depth and it's tough to replace an athlete of that caliber. Oh, kind of like your starting QB and RB.

But we only have 13 schollies not 85. Oh, so you can't recruit 5 start athletes to start or come off the bench when another 5 star player goes down?

But. But. But. Honestly I really do like Rose AND Bronco. But I LOVE hearing what Bronco is doing to help make these YM into good husbands, fathers, role models, etc. If I had an incredibly athletically gifts son and he could choose to play football or basketball for BYU I would want him playing for Bronco.

End of rant. Still LOVE Dave. Just feel bad Bronco gets the crap rap.

Go Cougs!!!
J. Child
Ammon, ID

BYU lost to Pepperdine, LMU, Portland and Pacific last season and still made the NCAA tournament with an at-large bid. Season isn't lost. At this point in the season last year, BYU already had 7 losses, 2 of which were LMU and...wait for it...Pepperdine. Perhaps Pepperdine isn't as bad you're making them out to be.

30+ games are played in basketball. Match ups are much more of an issue in basketball than football. BYU has 5 losses on the season thus far. Purdue and Pepperdine are black eyes, but there are still 13 games left in regular season, plus the WCC tournament. Lots of hoops to be played.

Football lost all chances of a "special" season with its first loss to USU. After that, all football had to do was make sure they finished the season at .500. Basketball still has its chances so don't throw the towel in yet.

Regarding Bronco and his ability to mold young men into good husbands, fathers, etc. What makes you think Rose doesn't do such. Just because he doesn't run it up the flag pole doesn't mean it isn't going on.

You seem to be "mad" that Bronco gets criticized and therefore are taking your angst out on Rose. What's Rose have to do with the criticism Bronco receives. "But it's not fair," people clamor. Guess what, life isn't fair.

[AmmonCougar1]

Yet again, poor loss...at home...to a bad team...that effectively removes us from a regular season title (may as well be independent in Basketball too right?)

But wait, KC was sick. Oh, is that like losing your QB to injury?

But wait, we lack depth and it's tough to replace an athlete of that caliber. Oh, kind of like your starting QB and RB.

But we only have 13 schollies not 85. Oh, so you can't recruit 5 start athletes to start or come off the bench when another 5 star player goes down?

But. But. But. Honestly I really do like Rose AND Bronco. But I LOVE hearing what Bronco is doing to help make these YM into good husbands, fathers, role models, etc. If I had an incredibly athletically gifts son and he could choose to play football or basketball for BYU I would want him playing for Bronco.

End of rant. Still LOVE Dave. Just feel bad Bronco gets the crap rap.

Go Cougs!!!
J. Child
Ammon, ID

BYU lost to Pepperdine, LMU, Portland and Pacific last season and still made the NCAA tournament with an at-large bid. Season isn't lost. At this point in the season last year, BYU already had 7 losses, 2 of which were LMU and...wait for it...Pepperdine. Perhaps Pepperdine isn't as bad you're making them out to be.

30+ games are played in basketball. Match ups are much more of an issue in basketball than football. BYU has 5 losses on the season thus far. Purdue and Pepperdine are black eyes, but there are still 13 games left in regular season, plus the WCC tournament. Lots of hoops to be played.

Football lost all chances of a "special" season with its first loss to USU. After that, all football had to do was make sure they finished the season at .500. Basketball still has its chances so don't throw the towel in yet.

Regarding Bronco and his ability to mold young men into good husbands, fathers, etc. What makes you think Rose doesn't do such. Just because he doesn't run it up the flag pole doesn't mean it isn't going on.

You seem to be "mad" that Bronco gets criticized and therefore are taking your angst out on Rose. What's Rose have to do with the criticism Bronco receives. "But it's not fair," people clamor. Guess what, life isn't fair.

Gunk. All fair points. Here are a few follow ups to them: No disagreements with the longer season and match up comments. Slight disagreement with the comment about the football team just finding a way to finish at .500. Being in the Big Dance does not, in my mind equate with a NY6 game or the playoffs when you are a 8 seed or lower. Odds are your out after one game. Personally I think BYU needs to be a 7 or higher, preferably a 5 or higher to enjoy the chance to advance and fancy themselves in for a longer run in the tourney. That loss, and those you mentioned last year most likely cost us that chance. I can't imagine BYU getting a high at-large bid with losses like those you mentioned and others similar to them that they might yet have.

About Bronco molding players. You're right and I would tend to agree that Dave does similar things. But you don't even hear players running 'it up a flag pole'...at least I can't recall too much of such praise.

And lastly, to some extent you are correct, I do stand in Broncos corner somewhat in defense of those who toot Rose' horn and complain why Bronco cannot do the same. But the bottom line to me is I do like them both. I do think they are both great men and doing very fine jobs with their respective teams. And neither is perfect and neither should be pitted against the other. Both deserve respect and, imo, admiration for what they have done despite the limitations with which they both deal.

Go Cougs!!!
J. Child
Ammon, ID

[Gunk]

Gunk. All fair points. Here are a few follow ups to them: No disagreements with the longer season and match up comments. Slight disagreement with the comment about the football team just finding a way to finish at .500. Being in the Big Dance does not, in my mind equate with a NY6 game or the playoffs when you are a 8 seed or lower. Odds are your out after one game. Personally I think BYU needs to be a 7 or higher, preferably a 5 or higher to enjoy the chance to advance and fancy themselves in for a longer run in the tourney. That loss, and those you mentioned last year most likely cost us that chance. I can't imagine BYU getting a high at-large bid with losses like those you mentioned and others similar to them that they might yet have.

In making the .500 comment my intention was to point out that after the first loss the chance at a "special" season is gone. It wasn't a claim that the football team was just mailing it in at that point. Essentially, one loss ruins Bronco's season; whereas, one loss doesn't ruin Rose's season. There is a lot of wailing by fans when basketball drops a game or two (understandable) but it doesn't mean the season is basically gone like in football.

About Bronco molding players. You're right and I would tend to agree that Dave does similar things. But you don't even hear players running 'it up a flag pole'...at least I can't recall too much of such praise.

Rose doesn't have as many players on his team so we just aren't going to hear as much from players as we do with Bronco's players. Furthermore, a lot of the players on the football team touting Bronco's mentoring skills are ones that had some issues with being on the team, whether HC or academic related. For the most part, Rose doesn't seem to have as many such issues. If I recall correctly, Rose has only had two players with HC issues, Davies and Loyd. Davies had many wonderful things to say about Rose. Loyd transferred as he clearly had no intention of keeping the HC and doing what it took to redeem himself.

And lastly, to some extent you are correct, I do stand in Broncos corner somewhat in defense of those who toot Rose' horn and complain why Bronco cannot do the same. But the bottom line to me is I do like them both. I do think they are both great men and doing very fine jobs with their respective teams. And neither is perfect and neither should be pitted against the other. Both deserve respect and, imo, admiration for what they have done despite the limitations with which they both deal.

I have no problem with people defending Bronco. I think he's a great coach and count myself as a defender too. Now that doesn't mean Bronco can't get better. The OP was why Rose gets a pass from fan criticism while Bronco seems to endure more. IMO, one of the many reasons is Rose has been more successful.

[Brayden Green]

I can't believe that no one mentioned that Dave Rose has cancer, and as recently as this year had episodes. I am fairly convinced that is a setback in his coaching career, and if he didn't have that our team would be at least 1-2 wins better a year. Think of what our football team would be like if Bronco had to rely on his assistants to coach the team while doing some testing... *Shudders thinking about the irreparable damage Howell would do without Bronco looking over his shoulder in fall scrimmages**

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Cougs_Rule]

Blue, I brought up the cancER and that it might being fans compassion and forgiveness.

But regardless, the OP was attempting to compain about why Rose gets a pass and Bronco doesn't.
Statistically, we see that Rose has done better.
But, I ask folks like Ammon to sit back and answer the question. Why in fact does Bronco not get a pass?
The delta between Rose's stats being slightly improved (15% better) vs the disproportionate amount of criticism Bronco gets (50% more than Rose) is attributable Broncos occassional disdain for fans, media, and some donors. He simply has not managed his reputation very well. Reap what you sow. Don't build expectations NCs and two undefeated years on top of criticizing Fans level of education, etc. Again, I'm not offended. But a lot of fans were and add a few tough years, long losing streak to rivals and add the brutal social media and the negativity compounded in a very unfair way. He was doing better with social media but has once again gone into his cave. I hope it all gets worked out and he stays. Credit him for picking up the D.
But rather than whining about why Rose gets a pass, ask why Bronco doesn't.

[Brayden Green]

I'm also not sure I mentioned this officially on this thread:

Dave Rose made a huge mistake with Carlino. Kid is balling out in the (MUCH tougher) Big East right now. His rebounding, handles, and passing vision and ability were perfect for the uptempo offense at BYU. We don't score on the break nearly as much as we used to. We have become very much an isolation based team, giving the ball to someone on the wing and having them go one on one against their man. It is a huge problem. It will be remedied shortly when Emery and Calvert get back, but he made a mistake playing first Cusick and second KC at point. And before you throw KC's assist numbers at me, I GET IT, HE"S A GREAT PLAYER! I'M GLAD TO HAVE HIM!!! But... a lot of the assists he is getting are from passing to a cutter when a second defender comes to double his drives. It isn't like KC has elite passing or vision, he is just a DANG GOOD player. And good on him for that. I just wish that Carlino was here passing KC and Haws the ball, and Rose messed that up - big time.

[Wolverine]

I'm also not sure I mentioned this officially on this thread:

Dave Rose made a huge mistake with Carlino. Kid is balling out in the (MUCH tougher) Big East right now. His rebounding, handles, and passing vision and ability were perfect for the uptempo offense at BYU. We don't score on the break nearly as much as we used to. We have become very much an isolation based team, giving the ball to someone on the wing and having them go one on one against their man. It is a huge problem. It will be remedied shortly when Emery and Calvert get back, but he made a mistake playing first Cusick and second KC at point. And before you throw KC's assist numbers at me, I GET IT, HE"S A GREAT PLAYER! I'M GLAD TO HAVE HIM!!! But... a lot of the assists he is getting are from passing to a cutter when a second defender comes to double his drives. It isn't like KC has elite passing or vision, he is just a DANG GOOD player. And good on him for that. I just wish that Carlino was here passing KC and Haws the ball, and Rose messed that up - big time.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I will add to this discussion. I always liked Carlino, but none of us posters will ever know the details of him leaving. To say Coach Rose blew it with Carlino is too easy. Coach Rose bringing Carlino in as the 6th man last year worked at the time. If it was Carlino's ego that got in his way of continuing to be part of the program, then that is on him, not Coach Rose. Never once have I heard Anson Winder bemoan the fact that he was the 6th man earlier this season, and I seriously doubt he will sulk should he be thrust into that role when and if Austin returns. Sure it would have been nice to have Carlino for his Senior season, but obviously he wasn't happy and found something that works for him. I say good for him, and not knowing the specifics, you won't hear me say Coach Rose blew it with Carlino. Too much of an oversimplification IMO.

[Brayden Green]

To be fair, Carlino never bemoaned the situation that Rose put him in either. He clearly didn't want to stay and do a repeat of last year. When people have interviewed him he has always said that he "loved everything at BYU, except the basketball" when people have tried to bait him to insult Mormons. He looked for something better and got it, and deserves it. He plays hard and is a class act.

Sure, I don't know all the particulars. I have guessed at some things. I don't think that Carlino went to a worse program this year where he would be brand new to new players and a new system just because. I think he went because he heard that he was going to be coming off the bench backing up KC and/or Fischer. He didn't want that, went to the Big East, and is now making some big noise in one of the best basketball conferences in the nation. IF their team was winning more he would be making national news. They aren't but he is definitely pulling his own weight, and scouts flock to the Big East. Good for him. All the evidence leads me in the direction I have guessed at, and if anything substantial comes along I would be happy to change at that point.

[Wolverine]

I can't imagine Carlino left because he didn't think he could compete for playing time, a starting position, etc. If anything, the guy is a competitor. I can't imagine Coach Rose told him he would be banished to the end of the bench. The guy played major minutes and was a major contributor for 2+ seasons. I have no idea why he left, but he was in a position to do so without penalty with a degree in hand. Much like Jordan Leslie and others on this year's football team. I do agree that if Carlino were still here, something would have had to give with the likes of Winder, Fischer, and Halford. Even in Rose's system, there would not have been enough shots to go around. It is what it is and I hope this team can right a listing ship.

[BYULV]

I'm also not sure I mentioned this officially on this thread:

Dave Rose made a huge mistake with Carlino. Kid is balling out in the (MUCH tougher) Big East right now. His rebounding, handles, and passing vision and ability were perfect for the uptempo offense at BYU. We don't score on the break nearly as much as we used to. We have become very much an isolation based team, giving the ball to someone on the wing and having them go one on one against their man. It is a huge problem. It will be remedied shortly when Emery and Calvert get back, but he made a mistake playing first Cusick and second KC at point. And before you throw KC's assist numbers at me, I GET IT, HE"S A GREAT PLAYER! I'M GLAD TO HAVE HIM!!! But... a lot of the assists he is getting are from passing to a cutter when a second defender comes to double his drives. It isn't like KC has elite passing or vision, he is just a DANG GOOD player. And good on him for that. I just wish that Carlino was here passing KC and Haws the ball, and Rose messed that up - big time.

Can't believe we are rehashing Carlino, but you make his play sound a lot rosier than it really is this year. Here's a recent article to clarify how his season is really going, about like when he was at BYU: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... t-BYU.html

I don't think rose did anything wrong with Carlino, I think Carlino wanted to go and he did.