Obama--Eating his cake and having it too.

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Re: Obama--Eating his cake and having it too.

Postby BroncoBot » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:40 pm

Really?

Congressional approval for waging war was another way the founders made sure the president was kept in check (they were tired of the heavy handed tactics of kings, which sounds exactly like what Obama and Romney want). That's all the "context" I need. Context unfortunately at this point is subjective, I've got some very liberal associates who will twist the constitution with plenty of context. I think it was a mistake for Obama to dabble in the middle east without any approval whatsoever, and I'll criticize Romney if he does the same.

My point is that while Romney is a step in the right direction, he is not going to be able to deliver America from the path they've started down and I'm afraid he won't honor the constitution any more than other recent presidents. It will take a monumental shift in the house and senate towards sound constitutional decisions. Those types of decisions haven't been made by either political party for decades. America's house and senate seats need to be full of people who are willing to stand up to people like Barack Obama, Janet Napalatino, Orrin Hatch, HArry Reid, Mitt Romney, Nancy Pelosi, Eric Holder, Rahm Emanuel and anyone else who believes they are above the guidelines established in the constitution.

Americans have justified this departure from sound policies because they've been convinced they need the government to take care of them from some rogue nation like Iran, or a flu epidemic, or gun loving religious zealots who invariably are going to take over. Some no longer want freedom, instead, they favor a babysitter who will make all their decisions for them and in turn force others to depend on the government as well.

It's an extremely slippery slope when the president doesn't believe he needs to go through the checks and balances that were set up when our country was founded.

tww, honest question. Could you explain the context you are speaking of?
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Re: Obama--Eating his cake and having it too.

Postby Ddawg » Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:00 pm

jvquarterback wrote:
ABYUFAN wrote:
jvquarterback wrote:So you think Mitt's lawyers wouldn't make every possible argument for one of his bills that face the supreme court. Or argue both sides of EP if it suited his purposes. That's kind of naive. Presidents have been doing this for two centuries and more.

Is this an "everyone's doing it so it's not a sin" argument?


Nope. Just letting you know Mitt doesn't care one bit about the Constitution either.


Wow. That's enlightening. I hope you are wrong. What this country needs is a president that really does give a damn about the constitution and the rule of law. Not just a self serving agenda. That's not a naive hope. That's hope for the survival of the is country are we have known it. Another 4 years of Obama and we will not recognize this country.
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Re: Obama--Eating his cake and having it too.

Postby tww » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:49 am

BroncoBot wrote:Really?

Congressional approval for waging war was another way the founders made sure the president was kept in check (they were tired of the heavy handed tactics of kings, which sounds exactly like what Obama and Romney want). That's all the "context" I need. Context unfortunately at this point is subjective, I've got some very liberal associates who will twist the constitution with plenty of context. I think it was a mistake for Obama to dabble in the middle east without any approval whatsoever, and I'll criticize Romney if he does the same.

My point is that while Romney is a step in the right direction, he is not going to be able to deliver America from the path they've started down and I'm afraid he won't honor the constitution any more than other recent presidents. It will take a monumental shift in the house and senate towards sound constitutional decisions. Those types of decisions haven't been made by either political party for decades. America's house and senate seats need to be full of people who are willing to stand up to people like Barack Obama, Janet Napalatino, Orrin Hatch, HArry Reid, Mitt Romney, Nancy Pelosi, Eric Holder, Rahm Emanuel and anyone else who believes they are above the guidelines established in the constitution.

Americans have justified this departure from sound policies because they've been convinced they need the government to take care of them from some rogue nation like Iran, or a flu epidemic, or gun loving religious zealots who invariably are going to take over. Some no longer want freedom, instead, they favor a babysitter who will make all their decisions for them and in turn force others to depend on the government as well.

It's an extremely slippery slope when the president doesn't believe he needs to go through the checks and balances that were set up when our country was founded.

tww, honest question. Could you explain the context you are speaking of?



BroncoBot, I don't think you and I have any real disagreement about the constitution. I just think it is bad timing to attack Romney now. I will make you a deal that as soon as he is elected I will be right there with you doing everything we can to hold him to his oath to protect, preserve, and uphold the constitution.

Now, if you want to talk about whether we should bomb Iran or not that may be a topic for a whole new thread.

We are already committed to Israel so supporting them in an attack on Iran is different than a declaration of war. I don't think the president needs any more authority from congress than he has already been given for that purpose. I am pretty sure that all of the paperwork necessary to protect Israel was signed off by congress long ago. Just like the president doesn't need a declaration from congress to protect the United States if attacked, I don't think he needs it to give support or protection to Israel. So the constitution has already been satisfied regarding a defense mechanism for Israel. This may be what Romney was referring to. I don't think he was saying that he plans on disregarding the constitution but that provisions have already been made and no further congressional action is necessary. That is a partial answer to the context question you had.
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Re: Obama--Eating his cake and having it too.

Postby BroncoBot » Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:13 pm

tww wrote:
BroncoBot wrote:Really?

Congressional approval for waging war was another way the founders made sure the president was kept in check (they were tired of the heavy handed tactics of kings, which sounds exactly like what Obama and Romney want). That's all the "context" I need. Context unfortunately at this point is subjective, I've got some very liberal associates who will twist the constitution with plenty of context. I think it was a mistake for Obama to dabble in the middle east without any approval whatsoever, and I'll criticize Romney if he does the same.

My point is that while Romney is a step in the right direction, he is not going to be able to deliver America from the path they've started down and I'm afraid he won't honor the constitution any more than other recent presidents. It will take a monumental shift in the house and senate towards sound constitutional decisions. Those types of decisions haven't been made by either political party for decades. America's house and senate seats need to be full of people who are willing to stand up to people like Barack Obama, Janet Napalatino, Orrin Hatch, HArry Reid, Mitt Romney, Nancy Pelosi, Eric Holder, Rahm Emanuel and anyone else who believes they are above the guidelines established in the constitution.

Americans have justified this departure from sound policies because they've been convinced they need the government to take care of them from some rogue nation like Iran, or a flu epidemic, or gun loving religious zealots who invariably are going to take over. Some no longer want freedom, instead, they favor a babysitter who will make all their decisions for them and in turn force others to depend on the government as well.

It's an extremely slippery slope when the president doesn't believe he needs to go through the checks and balances that were set up when our country was founded.

tww, honest question. Could you explain the context you are speaking of?



BroncoBot, I don't think you and I have any real disagreement about the constitution. I just think it is bad timing to attack Romney now. I will make you a deal that as soon as he is elected I will be right there with you doing everything we can to hold him to his oath to protect, preserve, and uphold the constitution.

Now, if you want to talk about whether we should bomb Iran or not that may be a topic for a whole new thread.

We are already committed to Israel so supporting them in an attack on Iran is different than a declaration of war. I don't think the president needs any more authority from congress than he has already been given for that purpose. I am pretty sure that all of the paperwork necessary to protect Israel was signed off by congress long ago. Just like the president doesn't need a declaration from congress to protect the United States if attacked, I don't think he needs it to give support or protection to Israel. So the constitution has already been satisfied regarding a defense mechanism for Israel. This may be what Romney was referring to. I don't think he was saying that he plans on disregarding the constitution but that provisions have already been made and no further congressional action is necessary. That is a partial answer to the context question you had.

Agree to disagree (on some points). If some arrangement WAS made by congress that the USA always protects Israel and the president does not need approval to put our troops in harms way, I think that was a foolish decision, another un-constitutional policy and one that should be revoked. It means that the USA does not see Israel as a sovereign nation (and I totally think that Israel could defend herself, let's not kid ourselves). And secondly, it now means that the USA is at the beck and call of Israel. If Israel wants to become a STATE, that would be one thing, although I think it would be foolish for the USA to take her up on that.
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Re: Obama--Eating his cake and having it too.

Postby BoiseBYU » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:40 am

Congress gets to declare war, but I do not think that reserved power restrains the Commander in Chief from ordering the military to undertake various military measures like drone strikes or sending in bombers to attack Iran's nuclear facilities. The War Powers Act reigns in presidential military action and in the end Congress as controller of the purse checks the President here. There would have not been an Iraq if Congress refused to have paid for it. So I'm with TWW. Romney would be in his prerogative to launch an air strike against Iran for example, although I still question greatly the wisdom of that course of action
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Re: Obama--Eating his cake and having it too.

Postby BOID » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:23 am

Also agree with tww. The War Powers Act was not meant to reign in the president, as much as it was designed to allow the United States to respond promptly in a crisis by giving the president the authority to wage war for a limited period, giving the congress time to debate the matter; I think about 60 days, IIRC. The president can order air strikes and send in the Marines and Special Forces without asking Congress, but then the congress can call it off after the presidential war powers expire.

Also, anyone who thinks that Obama respects The Constitution as much as Romney, is smoking something, or perhaps deranged from their childhood.

Go Romney! Throw the anti-American bum out!
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