Tell me the last time Israel had a suicide bomber walk into a coffee shop in the Gaza Strip, or Lebanon and blow up Muslims while they were socializing.
again. Let me re-iterate. I don't disagree with anything you've written about Palestinian attacks or atrocities. They're awful. Israel is constantly under-siege. But why do you ignore the Palestinian side? Israel is just. as. guilty and your arguments focus on only one side. Israel doesn't NEED to use suicide bombers because they have US tanks, US helicopters, and US rockets. Palestinians are so desperate with their Israeli neighbors that their ONLY recourse is suicide attacks. If you wanted to stop suicide bombings, just arm the Palestinians with the same weapons we do Israel (not my recommendation mind you)
Ddawg wrote:Please share the last time an Israeli blew up a school bus, or public transportation bus, or a bus full of Muslims on vacation? It has not happened.
Palestinians have great difficulty going anywhere on vacation. Israel severely restricts their travel in and out of Palestine. Most of the Palestinians living in Jordan arrived illegally as refugees. "Vacations" also implies the disposable income and luxuries as paid time off that are currently enjoyed by high GDP countries like the US and Israel. Palestinian GDP has been so incredibly stifled and destroyed by Israel that a 'vacation' is beyond most of them. Many are incredibly destitute, poor, and angry.
Ddawg wrote:Or, please tell me the last time Israel launched rockets into the Gaza strip - that were not retaliation for terrorist rocket attacks aimed at Jewish civilians. Do you know how many rockets have been launched from Gaza into Israel between 2001-2009? 8,600 rockets. Now, that is from just Gaza. We are not including the rockets from Southern Lebanon.
that's quite a lot of rockets. Most of which are inaccurate, poorly aimed, and manage to hit a building somewhere. Why don't you quote Israeli "rockets"? Why can't you look at two sides of an issue? I have a better statistic than rockets fired. How about deaths. Between 2000 and 2010, Israel lost 1,096 people in the conflict with Palestine. That's deplorable. How about Palestinians? 6,568. That's nearly six times as many. (btw that doesn't include the many sick Palestinians who died trying to get to hospitals because of Israeli roadblocks within Palestine). Is an Israeli life worth more than a Palestinian?
Ddawg wrote:Now, imagine terrorists had fired 8,600 rockets from Mexico into San Diego, Ca. What do you think our response would be? I assure you, we would not be as reserved and measured as has been Israel's response. No way. The public, the Mayor, the Governor, Congress and the President would not tolerate such a condition to exist.
Interesting example by trying to make rocket attacks against Israel seem more potent by supposing they were made against some place patriotic and familiar. You've studied Islam so you know how tribal the entire region is. San Diego is a city in my country but I don't have family there. Do you think it would be harder having a local city bombed or having your family attacked by a foreign government? Imagine if Mexico killed a member of your family. let's say your sister because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now she's dead due to a retaliatory strike for rockets you never fired. If you had no resources except rocks to throw, no weapons, no army, no vote, no hope. perhaps could you understand an anger that could make you mad enough to blow yourself up? I could.
the example also helps illustrate Palestinian desperation. Mexico would never launch rockets because they can have any International disputes taken to the WTO, the UN, and has large bargaining power as a major US trade partner. They have ambassadors and diplomacy, tarrif power and millions of Mexicans living in the US. Mexico as a sovereign nation could do a lot more to hurt the US (and itself) by simply closing its border to trade. Mexico also has a large standing army. None of these options exist for Palestine. And sad as it is, rockets are all they have! Do you see? Palestine has NO options.
Ddawg wrote:Your effort to draw a comparison between the terrorist attacks from Gaza and Southern Lebanon into Israel vs. Israel's measured, retaliatory, military responses - it is like comparing apples to an elephant.
yes it is. That's the problem. Israel is the elephant and the apple is trying to survive under the elephants feet. Apparently exploding is the only option that still gets the elephants attention.
Ddawg wrote:The Israeli's would love to end hostilities with the radical Islamic Jihadi's. They would love to live in peace, with security, and no fear for themselves and their children. But - Hamas, the PLO, Iran, Syria, etc. They refuse to end the terrorist activities.
Except compare the standard of living of Israel with Palestine -- It's not a difference of night and day, it's a difference of say an elephant and an apple. a dried and rotten apple. Israel has all the money, military, power, and quality of life -- of course they're going to want to walk away from the table. They've already 'won' but that sucess comes at the very large expense of the Palestinian people.
You say that Israel would love to end hostilities, but that wish doesn't include most of the reasons Israel is attacked in the first place namely releasing the Palestinian territories, Letting Palestine self-govern, removing all military presence and claim for those territories as well as removing settlements the UN has declared illegal. No, Israel just wants Palestine to stop wiggling while they continue to sit on him.
Ddawg wrote:So, it continues - and will continue. The radical Islamic terrorists do not want peace. They want the complete annihilation of Israel and all the Jewish inhabitants. No other outcome is acceptable.
Seriously - if you do not believe that - then I now fully understand the nature of this discussion.
Yes I do believe that Muslims want the full extermination of Israel. I don't doubt that at all. I've attended rallies where little children spoke of their hatred for Israel and desire for its extermination. They were young enough that I doubt they even knew what it meant.
But the 'why' is where we disagree. I hear you arguing primarily that it's simply a violence inherent in a religion or is based on religious philosophy. While that certainly plays a role, i think it's a small one. I've yet to hear you mention, even once, that Israel's disproportionate violence, they're suppression,killing, and brutality of a people the entire region views as brothers, might have anything to do with the mountain of hate they bring on themselves.