Response to “Are Mormons Closer to Muslims or Christians?”

[Schmoe]

I've wondered for a few years, if Islam wouldn't benefit from a return of a Caliph.

"I'm going, going, back, back, to Caliph, Caliph"

[BoiseBYU]

I've wondered for a few years, if Islam wouldn't benefit from a return of a Caliph. Some central authority who can speak for Islam.

The problem, though, is that you can't separate Islam the religion from Islam the political ideology.

I've speculated similarly, but if it is just some person or group of people, I doubt it would help. Men (or women) without the Spirit and on their own are not much to hope on. It was after all groups of men that gave us the Nicene Creed and the Spanish Inquisition and indulgences....

[BroncoBot]

I've wondered for a few years, if Islam wouldn't benefit from a return of a Caliph. Some central authority who can speak for Islam.

The problem, though, is that you can't separate Islam the religion from Islam the political ideology.

AGree with both of these sentiments.

[BroncoBot]

Note to Broncobot: If you keep trying to pull in other religions to this discussion it will only serve to show that you are not willing to address the facts about Islam. So be flippant if you want but if you have a meaningful point in defense of Islam, make it.

thanks dad.

I'm trying to have a meaningful conversation but it doesn't really appear to be going anywhere. I've given my thoughts on Islam:
1. Leave them alone and they will fall on their own sword.
2. They aren't too much different than many other religions. All have had "issues" in their past/current. I personally believe that the lack of moral fortitude and the gradual loss of personal liberties in the USA is more dangerous that Islam.

I understand your concerns. What are your solutions. you can't force someone to change their beliefs. It will only make them dig in deeper. If the US military is not able to qualm the violence in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc no amount of force can. It's their religion, it's what they believe, as twisted as it may seem to you and me.

The fact that the LDS church has numerous articles published in official church magazines is enough for me to not judge the whole of Islam by a few irresponsible acts. Like BoiseBYU pointed out, the ratio of violent acts to number of Muslims suggest that most Muslims are not violent. The fact that violence is against the law in Muslim countries suggests (to me at least) that they have limits. I think we would make a lot more progress by reaching out to these people rather than demonizing them.

[tww]

Note to Broncobot: If you keep trying to pull in other religions to this discussion it will only serve to show that you are not willing to address the facts about Islam. So be flippant if you want but if you have a meaningful point in defense of Islam, make it.

thanks dad.

I'm trying to have a meaningful conversation but it doesn't really appear to be going anywhere. I've given my thoughts on Islam:
1. Leave them alone and they will fall on their own sword.
2. They aren't too much different than many other religions. All have had "issues" in their past/current. I personally believe that the lack of moral fortitude and the gradual loss of personal liberties in the USA is more dangerous that Islam.

I understand your concerns. What are your solutions. you can't force someone to change their beliefs. It will only make them dig in deeper. If the US military is not able to qualm the violence in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc no amount of force can. It's their religion, it's what they believe, as twisted as it may seem to you and me.

The fact that the LDS church has numerous articles published in official church magazines is enough for me to not judge the whole of Islam by a few irresponsible acts. Like BoiseBYU pointed out, the ratio of violent acts to number of Muslims suggest that most Muslims are not violent. The fact that violence is against the law in Muslim countries suggests (to me at least) that they have limits. I think we would make a lot more progress by reaching out to these people rather than demonizing them.

Touche! Fair enough, I deserved that. I was probably overreacting to what seemed to be a little chippyness in your last post.

On your #1: Not sure how that can be done or maybe even what you mean exactly. It appears to me that they refuse to be left alone. Otherwise, I am sure we would gladly do it.

Your #2: To the point of Islam being pretty much like every other religion. I don't understand how you can seriously make that claim. I don't see any other religions that are sponsoring or growing terrorists. I don't see any other religions that are intent on taking over the world by whatever means is necessary. I don't see any other religions that will kill one of their own for converting to another religion. I don't see any other religions with anything as oppressive as Sharia law. I don't see any other religions that will produce death threats for speaking out against them or for burning a book of scripture. Heck Baptists don't even do that.

However, on the second half of #2, I totally agree with you. I will add to that that the very reasons I agree with you on the second part relate to the reasons I disagree on the first part. As American's lose liberties we become more like Islam. I believe that there are many people that would have America like Islam, not for any real religious value but for the control. Keep in mind that all previous attempts to rule the world or a part of it by secular means only ended up falling to power derived from Christian values. If anyone is going to rule the world they have to eliminate America and to bring down America you must first wipe out Christian values. To start drawing comparisons or raising up Islam to the same level as Christian values only serves to degrade the latter.

Besides, if bullets ever start flying I don't want to die for Islam because some fool said Mormons and Muslims are all the same. Jews I am prepared to stand with but Muslims, no.

Which brings me to your other questions. I have no bandaid for the problems presented by the political and religious beliefs of people in the middle east. That is why it scares me. It may have sounded a little paranoid for me to mention bullets flying but can anyone doubt that that is exactly where this is headed?

BoiseBYU won't mind me saying that I disagree with his analysis because his methodology is flawed. If you are only counting the number of suicide bombers then yes, that would constitute a minority. But there are many more crimes that we need to include in the picture. Those would be all moral crimes committed by our values, not theirs. I am talking about crimes of cultural/political origin that would not be acceptable to us. Before you start saying that we have crimes just like they have crimes, the difference is that the crimes I am talking about have either tradition in Islam or are sidestepped by their culture. Once we have broadened the scope of what we include in the measure of crimes, then we have to take into consideration that those who commit the crimes were not living on an island. They did not invent themselves and they did not commit the crimes by themselves. They had teachers and they had help. Then we must factor in the number that don't show up in any records because they were never caught. Maybe a statistician would care to way in on this? My point is to get an accurate picture you have to account for all of the people that perpetuate the criminal activity and not just the criminals themselves.

Which brings me back to Sharia law. Anyone with sympathies toward Sharia law becomes part of the problem. That is what is see and the conundrum regarding good Muslim v. bad Muslim.

As far as reaching out to them. Most definitely yes, as we should with all people. We should be exporting the US constitution all over the world. However, Muslims have a long way to go before I can justify trusting them.

[tww]

The defense department came out with a statement that the Afghan police that killed the American soldiers did it because of stress. That is so lame it is embarrassing. This kind of garbage is a good example of the very bad trend I see taking place. This kind of thinking will only get more people killed. As long as we live in denial that the source of the problem is from a religious level we will never be able to deal with it. If we keep saying we are just like them then one day we will wake up and that statement will be true.

[BoiseBYU]

Note to Broncobot: If you keep trying to pull in other religions to this discussion it will only serve to show that you are not willing to address the facts about Islam. So be flippant if you want but if you have a meaningful point in defense of Islam, make it.

thanks dad.

I'm trying to have a meaningful conversation but it doesn't really appear to be going anywhere. I've given my thoughts on Islam:
1. Leave them alone and they will fall on their own sword.
2. They aren't too much different than many other religions. All have had "issues" in their past/current. I personally believe that the lack of moral fortitude and the gradual loss of personal liberties in the USA is more dangerous that Islam.

I understand your concerns. What are your solutions. you can't force someone to change their beliefs. It will only make them dig in deeper. If the US military is not able to qualm the violence in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc no amount of force can. It's their religion, it's what they believe, as twisted as it may seem to you and me.

The fact that the LDS church has numerous articles published in official church magazines is enough for me to not judge the whole of Islam by a few irresponsible acts. Like BoiseBYU pointed out, the ratio of violent acts to number of Muslims suggest that most Muslims are not violent. The fact that violence is against the law in Muslim countries suggests (to me at least) that they have limits. I think we would make a lot more progress by reaching out to these people rather than demonizing them.

Touche! Fair enough, I deserved that. I was probably overreacting to what seemed to be a little chippyness in your last post.

On your #1: Not sure how that can be done or maybe even what you mean exactly. It appears to me that they refuse to be left alone. Otherwise, I am sure we would gladly do it.

Your #2: To the point of Islam being pretty much like every other religion. I don't understand how you can seriously make that claim. I don't see any other religions that are sponsoring or growing terrorists. I don't see any other religions that are intent on taking over the world by whatever means is necessary. I don't see any other religions that will kill one of their own for converting to another religion. I don't see any other religions with anything as oppressive as Sharia law. I don't see any other religions that will produce death threats for speaking out against them or for burning a book of scripture. Heck Baptists don't even do that.

However, on the second half of #2, I totally agree with you. I will add to that that the very reasons I agree with you on the second part relate to the reasons I disagree on the first part. As American's lose liberties we become more like Islam. I believe that there are many people that would have America like Islam, not for any real religious value but for the control. Keep in mind that all previous attempts to rule the world or a part of it by secular means only ended up falling to power derived from Christian values. If anyone is going to rule the world they have to eliminate America and to bring down America you must first wipe out Christian values. To start drawing comparisons or raising up Islam to the same level as Christian values only serves to degrade the latter.

Besides, if bullets ever start flying I don't want to die for Islam because some fool said Mormons and Muslims are all the same. Jews I am prepared to stand with but Muslims, no.

Which brings me to your other questions. I have no bandaid for the problems presented by the political and religious beliefs of people in the middle east. That is why it scares me. It may have sounded a little paranoid for me to mention bullets flying but can anyone doubt that that is exactly where this is headed?

BoiseBYU won't mind me saying that I disagree with his analysis because his methodology is flawed. If you are only counting the number of suicide bombers then yes, that would constitute a minority. But there are many more crimes that we need to include in the picture. Those would be all moral crimes committed by our values, not theirs. I am talking about crimes of cultural/political origin that would not be acceptable to us. Before you start saying that we have crimes just like they have crimes, the difference is that the crimes I am talking about have either tradition in Islam or are sidestepped by their culture. Once we have broadened the scope of what we include in the measure of crimes, then we have to take into consideration that those who commit the crimes were not living on an island. They did not invent themselves and they did not commit the crimes by themselves. They had teachers and they had help. Then we must factor in the number that don't show up in any records because they were never caught. Maybe a statistician would care to way in on this? My point is to get an accurate picture you have to account for all of the people that perpetuate the criminal activity and not just the criminals themselves.

Which brings me back to Sharia law. Anyone with sympathies toward Sharia law becomes part of the problem. That is what is see and the conundrum regarding good Muslim v. bad Muslim.

As far as reaching out to them. Most definitely yes, as we should with all people. We should be exporting the US constitution all over the world. However, Muslims have a long way to go before I can justify trusting them.

TWW is right agan. I don't mind. I don't think my analysis is flawed though. One billion Muslims is a lot of people to paint so broadly. And Islam is not so monolithic as you make it out to be. You lump it all together. I think that undermines your point to a degree.

[BroncoBot]

The defense department came out with a statement that the Afghan police that killed the American soldiers did it because of stress. That is so lame it is embarrassing. This kind of garbage is a good example of the very bad trend I see taking place. This kind of thinking will only get more people killed. As long as we live in denial that the source of the problem is from a religious level we will never be able to deal with it. If we keep saying we are just like them then one day we will wake up and that statement will be true.

We are not just like them. Far from it. There are huge differences in scripture, leadership, politics, reliance on a Savior etc etc etc. There are some core beliefs that could be considered common ground, but the differences are enormous.

I'd just like to clarify what I meant by falling on their own sword. I'd like to see our troops entire removed from that region (for multiple reasons). If the Muslims are such a violent hateful group like it has been suggested here, let them go back to fighting each other. Let them keep each other in check. One thing that fires me up more than anything is the UN/foreign governments attempting to tell America how to behave. In much the same way, I think that the Muslim nations have united against the USA because of our meddling in their affairs. Just get out, let them figure out how to deal with the violence. Let them earn their independence like America earned hers.

I realize that's much simpler to say than do, but something has to change.

It's been an interesting conversation. I'll let you have the last word tww (and others). This will be my last post concerning the matter.

[Ddawg]

The defense department came out with a statement that the Afghan police that killed the American soldiers did it because of stress. That is so lame it is embarrassing. This kind of garbage is a good example of the very bad trend I see taking place. This kind of thinking will only get more people killed. As long as we live in denial that the source of the problem is from a religious level we will never be able to deal with it. If we keep saying we are just like them then one day we will wake up and that statement will be true.

+1. The U.S. Govt. under the Obama Administration are living in denial. The Fort Hood shooting, where Nidal Hasan killed 13 people and wounded 29. A pretty obvious terrorist mass murder - yes? Not according to the Obama Admin. It's just work place violence.

Major Hasan, went to a gun store and asked specifically, which gun could he buy that had the highest capacity, and the most technologically advanced. He bought a gun, that he was advised, would "cause severe damage."

On Nov. 5, 2009 at 1:30 PM Hasan entered the Soldier Readiness Processing Center with his very lethal, high capacity, semi-automatic handgun. It was fitted with not 1, but 2 laser sights - one red, and one green.

He shouted "Allahu Akbar" and opened fire. Hasan passed up shooting civilians, and instead focused on shooting people in Army uniforms. Hasan did not stop shooting until Sergeant Mark Todd shot Hassan 5 times.

Guess what the official report classified the Fort Hood incident as? A terrorist incident? No. Classified as "workplace violence."

Hasan had shared his beliefs with associate Duane Reasoner Jr. that "you're not supposed to have alliances with Jews or Christian or others, and if you are killed in the military fighting against Muslims, you will go to hell." Reasoner further refused to condemn the attack as Hasan's brother, explaining "they were troops who were going to Afghanistan and Iraq to kill Muslims. I honestly have no pity for them."

[Ddawg]

Nidal Hasan was a committed, radical Jihadi. Here is what was printed on his Army business card:

"Behavioral Health - Mental Health - Life Skills
Nidal Hasan, MD, MPH
SoA (SWT)
Psychiatrist"

SoA = Soldier of Allah
SWT = When writing the name Allah (God), it is followed with the abbreviation "SWT." It stands for the Arabic words - "Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala (Glory to Him the Exalted)

Note - before transferring to Fort Hood, Maj, Nidal Hasan attended a Mosque in Maryland. Guess who runs that Mosque? The Muslim Brotherhood.

Do you think his actions were terrorism? Or work-place violence?

"You have to view this segment of the Meet the Press interview with Army chief of staff General George Casey to believe it, by admitting that the army’s diversity policies had trumped its security policies, and worst of all by making this statement: ‘As horrific as this tragedy was, if our diversity becomes a casualty, I think that’s worse.’”

What is wrong with us?