Thoughts on the Honor Code

[Cougarbib]

I thought the honor code was ridiculous when I arrived in 1969 - wanna be rock star - rebel without a clue. Got my MBA at The U and loved the freedom there. It was almost impossible to get in trouble there - almost anything goes.

Then I started to realize some things. Especially this:

BYU, other than being blessed with my family, was the best thing that ever happened to me. It just took me a while to figure that out.

I have five kids - did not send any to the U. I do not hate The U. It was good for me in many ways, too.

Y beats U.

I agree with what Cougs Rule posted and the convert to the Church comments.

I advanced to the C- Suite in 3 different multi-billion $ corporations. My career skyrocketed when I heeded advice from a mentor - Not LDS - Not in Utah - and started looking like a BYU graduate instead of a U graduate.

This was not Utah. Not Provo. Not LDS at all. Southern California, Chicago, Ventura County, and Hawaii.

I was fortunate that a mentor took me aside and let me know that my beard and long hair were fine for staff jobs - but suggested I take a look at the folks in the executive suite. Not even a moustache in sight.

Yes times changed. My boss in Hawaii had a funny looking growth under his lower lip. His boss, The Chairman, did not.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[NDCougar]

Bibs,

I agree about being professional, but that is not necessarily a BYU thing it is a corporate thing. You need to understand your environment. I work in NYC and dress accordingly, I could look out of place very "preppy" when in TX, UT or the Midwest. Likewise you can tell non-NY'ers when they come through town on business. Neither is bad, it is just a matter of dress. The rule of thumb is you should dress for the job you want not the job you have.

That being said in NYC there is a huge difference in dress between HF/PE/Wall Street folks and more artistic guys (marketing, media, music etc). All dress differently, if someone tried dress like me and showed up to a music label he would be deemed as a "suit"......not in a good way. Likewise if a hipster showed up in my office they would not be viewed positively. Know your environment.

We are talking about the HC and kids that are 18-24 not corporate environments. BYU students need to know their environment, aka dress accordingly. BYU needs to know its environment and understand these are young kids and some extra scruff after hours of studying for finals is not major transgression. If BYU really wants to dictate what kids wear and do they should have strict rules, aka have uniform, vs leave it in the hands of others to judge what is meant by the rules......I may have a different interpretation of a rule than you pertaining to the wording.

Personally I think some BYU (especially BYU-I) go overboard. The last two paragraphs really highlight this (I know it is BYU-I but it can still fit): http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7002 ... tml?pg=all" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Anyone know why the difference in the standards at BYU-I and BYU standards?

I am all for rules and having standards. IMO these need to be reviewed yearly and need to be very clear and not left in the hands of potential overly zealous people to oversee the process. There is no reason for kids to hounded on for minor things and to focus on the positive and really work on what is important pertaining to the mission of the university not debate what is facial hair and what is not.

[CrimsonCoug]

A few thoughts/observations:
- On Wilkinson: I think there was a pretty big split in perception between the faculty and the students. While I was attending the Y in the mid-90s, my uncle, long-time faculty in the science dpt, told me an interesting anecdote. I have the details fuzzy after 20 years (!!!), and this is second hand, so take it fwiw: My uncle was good friends with an administrator (dean/assoc dean) of one of the departments in the MARB who had retired shortly after the Wilkinson era. The admin got a knock at his home one day by someone doing a book on EL Wilkenson. The admin coldly said he didn't want to talk. Trying to get a response to at least one question, the author asked, "Would you consider Wilkenson to have been a successful president." The dean's response: "If you count success by the number of bodies bruised and bleeding on the field of battle, then yes, Wilkenson was a success" and politely shut the door. It was a turbulent time, and ELW didn't take any guff from anyone.
On the other hand, my Father in Law, who also attended at the time, loved him. I think young people probably appreciated someone willing to take a hard line on standards and expectations.

Still, I was visiting campus last week and had a conversation with a faculty member who had been a good mentor to me in the day. He was frustrated by the overly "safe" decisions some BYU administrators had made that affected the membership of the church in Palestine (yes, there are Palestinian members). He commented that sometimes it seems that BYU is trying to "out-brethren the Brethren."

We are commanded in scripture to "avoid the very appearance of evil" but also to not "look[...] beyond the mark." Clearly there's a tough balance there where can smart, faithful saints can disagree.

- On beards: Yes, Brigham Young couldn't be admitted to the testing center at his own universities. But that assumes Brigham Young from the 1800s would still dress the same today. Or Jesus for that matter. Both of them, and indeed all of the prophets, dressed in a way appropriate for their day. Personally, I don't think Brigham Young would wear a beard today.

- On respectability: So why did Joseph not have a beard, then Brigham not have a beard before he had one, and every other prophet through the 1950s not have a beard? Because, I believe, they were the prophet for their time and needed to present themselves in a respectable way. Despite our social tropes of "don't judge a book by its cover", I think it's pretty clear that God does care that His church and His disciples are respectable and dress respectably. The outward vessel should honor and reflect the inward vessel. The tough challenge becomes, 'respectable to whom and in what situations?' But I think the standards currently settled on follow the principle of being respectable and wholesome to most wholesome people. But there may be other standards or tweaks to those standards that also follow that principle.

- On skinny jeans at BYU-I: This seems to be the product of a (over?)-zealous director of the testing center. Still, the rule he's trying to follow is right there in the HC of both the Provo and Rexburg campuses, admonishing against clothing that is "form-fitting". Kinda hard to argue that skinny jeans--which now with modern materials and manufacturing aren't too far off of yoga pants--aren't form-fitting. But by the same standard, so are many of the shirts that women (and some men) also wear; if your bustline leaves little to the imagination, isn't that formfitting? This part of the rule has always bugged me, even from my time at BYU. Either have that part in the code, and enforce it, or don't have it in there. I'm OK either way, but just be consistent...and respectable and wholesome.

Whoa! Long post! Sorry!

[nuk13]

Bibs,

I agree about being professional, but that is not necessarily a BYU thing it is a corporate thing. You need to understand your environment. I work in NYC and dress accordingly, I could look out of place very "preppy" when in TX, UT or the Midwest. Likewise you can tell non-NY'ers when they come through town on business. Neither is bad, it is just a matter of dress. The rule of thumb is you should dress for the job you want not the job you have.

That being said in NYC there is a huge difference in dress between HF/PE/Wall Street folks and more artistic guys (marketing, media, music etc). All dress differently, if someone tried dress like me and showed up to a music label he would be deemed as a "suit"......not in a good way. Likewise if a hipster showed up in my office they would not be viewed positively. Know your environment.



We are talking about the HC and kids that are 18-24 not corporate environments. BYU students need to know their environment, aka dress accordingly. BYU needs to know its environment and understand these are young kids and some extra scruff after hours of studying for finals is not major transgression. If BYU really wants to dictate what kids wear and do they should have strict rules, aka have uniform, vs leave it in the hands of others to judge what is meant by the rules......I may have a different interpretation of a rule than you pertaining to the wording.

Personally I think some BYU (especially BYU-I) go overboard. The last two paragraphs really highlight this (I know it is BYU-I but it can still fit): http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7002 ... tml?pg=all" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Anyone know why the difference in the standards at BYU-I and BYU standards?

I am all for rules and having standards. IMO these need to be reviewed yearly and need to be very clear and not left in the hands of potential overly zealous people to oversee the process. There is no reason for kids to hounded on for minor things and to focus on the positive and really work on what is important pertaining to the mission of the university not debate what is facial hair and what is not.

Agreed.

[Rico]

I agree with the gist of what CrimsonCoug says. One relevant point that no one seems to be discussing is the issue of enforcement. Most of us probably agree that a well-trimmed beard or mustache can present a well-groomed look. But if well-trimmed facial hair becomes the new standard, how do you enforce it? Such a standard becomes a lot more subjective than the simple no-beard rule, and would probably create a lot more enforcement problems than it solves.

Also, I agree with the point about good grooming not being so much a matter of sin, but about presentability. If you're going to BYU, people assume you're LDS and you become a de facto representative of the religion. As such, BYU wants you to look good. I don't think anyone is arguing that wearing facial hair is a sin if you haven't signed an honor code prohibiting you from doing so.

[Cougs_Rule]

At first, I thought this thread would be fairly tolerable. But, it has definitely run its course and turned into a forum for people who want to showcase their "congruency" instead of hypocrisy regarding their indifference and/or defiance to those other "people" who want to control their minds and force their compliance.
I can't wait to talk just about football.
See you tonight… In my speedo! Just to show people that they can't control the way I think and behave.

[SpiffCoug]

One thing I think is worth mentioning, is that a lot of newcomers who aren't of the LDS faith (and even those who are LDS) who are not familiar with the HC lifestyle seem to really struggle with it before camp starts.

Coaches are extremely limited in their contact with players before camp starts. So guys like Blackmon who are entering an entirely new world simply don't have the opportunity to come under the guiding wing of Coach Mendenhall and the staff.

They think they understand the HC, but if it's an alien concept to you, then you don't full appreciate all that it means when you first step on campus. And coaches aren't able to guide these guys.

So perhaps this where the work/changes can come? Maybe Bronco needs to do a better job of assigning mentors earlier to these players. And maybe to a certain extent, split them up? A group of people unfamiliar with the HC aren't going to be as successful living the HC if they're trying to mentor each other.

Some changes I wouldn't mind see are almost all grooming & dress related. I think the bans on drugs, alcohol, premarital sex, et al can stay. They are well within bounds of LDS doctrine and should remain.

But the grooming and dress can be updated. Wilkinson and others were very much (and rightfully) concerned with preventing the counter-culture of the 60s from taking root in BYU. The HC was their method of accomplishing that. Mission accomplished. I think we can allow for more freedom to dress and have hairstyles, accessories as students wish. Have a standard that emphasizes cleanliness and being well groomed. Having a well kempt beard should be allowed.

This might help newcomers in their adjustments.

[Ddawg]

Ok, so, I can't wear a beard at BYU. Fine. At least I can wear my skinny jeans. I won't be seen in public wearing anything other than skinny jeans and flip-flops. Skinny jeans today - a beard tomorrow.

[BoiseBYU]

Ok, so, I can't wear a beard at BYU. Fine. At least I can wear my skinny jeans. I won't be seen in public wearing anything other than skinny jeans and flip-flops. Skinny jeans today - a beard tomorrow.

Just don't wear those flip flops at BYUI!

[Ddawg]

Ok, so, I can't wear a beard at BYU. Fine. At least I can wear my skinny jeans. I won't be seen in public wearing anything other than skinny jeans and flip-flops. Skinny jeans today - a beard tomorrow.

Just don't wear those flip flops at BYUI!

True dat! (BTW, I would not be caught dead wearing skinny jeans. Good grief. )