Heaps

[SpiffCoug]

Besides, again, the question shows bias. I don't think anyone here is arguing that Jake is the ONLY man for the job. Just the BEST one with our offense, as/is. I am all for Riley playing a wildcat position... To me it isn't one or the other, it is where is our offensive focus. Is it in a pure passer who can scramble, or a scrambler/running qb who can also pass. They aren't the same thing, and the offenses are much difference (SEE: BYU vs. AFA).

This is a good argument. I don't think that Riley who falls more in the 2nd set you describe wouldn't be able to run the current BYU offense. And Air Force would KILL for a QB who could throw as well as Riley. But you are correct, the coaches need to decide what kind of offense they're going to run. To force Riley into a Jake-style offense will be unsuccessful. To force Jake into at Riley-style offense will be unsuccessful.

It'll be very interesting to see how coaches in the fall balance running plays that showcase both QBs talents while still preparing the rest of the offense for the season.

[Lawboy]

Is Heaps the ONLY guy for the job right now? Of course not. No player is irreplaceable. But is Heaps the best man for the job? I'd say yes. The fact that Nelson did nothing to separate himself from a true freshman surprises me, since he has had a year in the offense, a year with the coaches and a year with the other players. For Heaps to already seemingly be an equal speaks more to me than anything. I'd play the guy who helps me win more right now. Not sure either guy will, to be honest, so I take potential. Heaps has way more, and playing time helps him achieve it quicker.

[Brayden Green]

Kitic,

Then why keep track of numbers during spring ball?

Excellent question... There is no real reason I can see, because we have no way of knowing who was playing where, only who was throwing the ball, and sometimes who catches, IF we're lucky.

If we're not even going to look at what was done in spring ball then why would those matter?

I contend that the numbers DO matter...

And if spring ball numbers don't matter how can possibly use Heaps' high school football numbers?

Easy, you don't. You've never seen me compare anyone's numbers. EVEN Riley's vs. Jakes because they are in different states against different competition.

I'm pretty sure there isn't ONE player on BYU's roster to who Heaps was throwing last year.

Wrong. Apo in multiple camps, that's besides the point, though

Sorry, you've have better arguments than this one.

Thanks. You do too.

I fail to see how 11v11 numbers in any way, shape or form are "NOT factual." Both Riley AND Jake compiled their 11v11 numbers agianst 1st, 2nd and 3rd team defense.

Have you played football? (I mean this honestly, I am not trying to call you out). When you run drills, especially in Spring practices, it is all about position battles. The plays are designed to single out weaknesses in offense and defense, and it really IS a big deal what plays are called at what time. Either one could be bombing against 3rd string DB's and that wouldn't really be fair to compare first team numbers against 2nd or 3rd team numbers. Can you see that? So I am not using numbers either pro or against either one. The only thing I am basing it on, is watching Riley live, versus what I have seen from Jake. Jake looks like a strong armed, poised, accurate qb. And Riley, to me, doesn't. I would hope he changes that, I just don't think you can learn to throw harder or get better mechanics in one year's time.

I wish BYU had kept better track of their numbers so that we could look at how each QB did against the respective defenses. I'm sure the coaches did, but all we can go off of are the generic 11v11 numbers.

Agreed. I doubt that the coaches kept notes of who did what against whom... maybe understaffers did, but I doubt any of the coaches did. Again, spring is just to get an idea of fundamentals and depth chart projections. They have notes, I'm sure, of who did what on big plays, etc. but I really doubt they know who-caught-what-against-whom for every play. That is why the numbers can be whatever you want them to be at this point. Again, if you both want to go on the record and say that Riley is as good a passer as Jake, feel free. Stop hiding behind numbers that don't mean anything to anybody, including the coaches.

That being said, I like your passion, and continued respect in this debate. I appreciate people that don't have to namecall etc, and not hold a real debate.

[SpiffCoug]

Excellent points.

Although I bet the coaches/staff/interns someone tracked EVERYTHING to be evaluated. I bet Bronco/Anae/Doman can go back and look at down & distance, play called, result, etc. so they do their best to compare apples to apples (i.e, how did Jake do with this down and distance and this formation and player set,). The coaches have the benefit of seeing these players every day and being able to put them in a variety of situations.

Even though, I've got my opinion, if Jake is announced the starter, I'll have no qualms or reservations knowing the coaches made the best choice they thought possible. They have much more data and observations available to them.

I really do think the coaches can't make a bad or wrong decision when it comes to the quarterback position.

One thing lost in all this Jake v. Riley debate is all the other position battles that will be going on in the fall. We need to find some safeties, some linebackers, some defensive linemen, a center, some tight ends, a running back, a full back. And there are true freshman that could be competing for significant playing time at each of those positions as well. It's why it's such an exciting time to be a BYU fan. We have so much talent coming into the program and much of that talent is just starting to make its way into the pipeline.

I was listening to the radio today and Kyle Gunther was talking about how BYU was only going to win 7 games this year. And Jan Jorgensen was agreeing with him! It was astounding. 7 games?! Have they looked at the schedule. I see 7 guaranteed wins. And if we go just 1-4 in the questionable games, BYU is at 8. I see very few circumstances where BYU only wins 7 - and most of those scenarios entail massive injury problems.

[Lawboy]

Jan obviously has a high opinion of himself as a player. No offense to him, but dude is more replaceable than he thinks. I think people are not giving the BYU D enough credit, personally. We typically win with offense, so when it appears that we might have a down year on that side of the ball due to inexperience at QB, it is doom and gloom. But guess what? Our D is going to be the best since 2006 and will help us win some games, as long as the offense does not lose them for us with turnovers. I like us to win 9, and to be competitive in the losses.

[Brayden Green]

Jan obviously has a high opinion of himself as a player. No offense to him, but dude is more replaceable than he thinks. I think people are not giving the BYU D enough credit, personally. We typically win with offense, so when it appears that we might have a down year on that side of the ball due to inexperience at QB, it is doom and gloom. But guess what? Our D is going to be the best since 2006 and will help us win some games, as long as the offense does not lose them for us with turnovers. I like us to win 9, and to be competitive in the losses.

Agreed. When you have a starter at DE who records almost as many offensive fumbles for the year as sacks, you have to check the source. Jan was phenomenal early on, and then soon became irrelevant. Just as now, he is more irrelevant than ever. It doesn't surprise me at all that he is looking for the limelight again.

[Mars]

I am not using numbers either pro or against either one. The only thing I am basing it on, is watching Riley live, versus what I have seen from Jake. Jake looks like a strong armed, poised, accurate qb. And Riley, to me, doesn't. I would hope he changes that, I just don't think you can learn to throw harder or get better mechanics in one year's time... the numbers can be whatever you want them to be at this point. Again, if you both want to go on the record and say that Riley is as good a passer as Jake, feel free.

I think this is what the debate boils down to. Some want to point to Nelson's numbers in the spring as being better than Heaps'. I feel that this is a reach, an effort to twist the numbers to try to show something that wasn't really the case. Like kitic says, we don't have great numbers to judge by in the first place- not even interceptions or rushing TDs (for the record, Heaps didn't throw an interception for the first two weeks of camp, Nelson threw one, and Lark threw two, but that's all I've found at it's such a small portion of the numbers as to be worthless). There's not enough info to mathematically really say anything, except that Lark struggled to score a touchdown.

So, with such a lack of good, solid numbers, we can go by what we have (for example, Jake passed for more TDs, Nelson threw less but gained more yards per throw). OR, we can go by what we saw. This is why I keep pointing out the media. Most of the local (Utah) sports media doesn't have a huge football background. They just go to practices and report what they saw. And they all saw Heaps as blowing Nelson out of the water.

For kitic, I was wondering if you had gone to any practices? Because if you saw Nelson blowing Heaps out of the water, if his passing looked better, if his arm strength and form, mechanics, tight spiral, etc. looked better, I would love to hear it. I just haven't heard any of that from a single "word of mouth" report yet.

I think that "IF" we had the full numbers, including snaps, that Jake's yardage and TDs per snap are easily outdistancing Riley's. But since we don't, I'll rely more on the "eye test". And so far, that has gone to Heaps... including the opinions of the BYU WRs and DBs. Which is hard to ignore when you get down to it, don't you think?

[Mars]

P.S.

"The Bonus Round"

IF Kasen Williams, the #1 WR in the nation, sees Heaps (his former high school quarterback) named the starter at BYU, he just may commit to be a Cougar. You never know.