BroncoBot wrote:tww wrote:
Note to Broncobot: If you keep trying to pull in other religions to this discussion it will only serve to show that you are not willing to address the facts about Islam. So be flippant if you want but if you have a meaningful point in defense of Islam, make it.
thanks dad.
I'm trying to have a meaningful conversation but it doesn't really appear to be going anywhere. I've given my thoughts on Islam:
1. Leave them alone and they will fall on their own sword.
2. They aren't too much different than many other religions. All have had "issues" in their past/current. I personally believe that the lack of moral fortitude and the gradual loss of personal liberties in the USA is more dangerous that Islam.
I understand your concerns. What are your solutions. you can't force someone to change their beliefs. It will only make them dig in deeper. If the US military is not able to qualm the violence in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc no amount of force can. It's their religion, it's what they believe, as twisted as it may seem to you and me.
The fact that the LDS church has numerous articles published in official church magazines is enough for me to not judge the whole of Islam by a few irresponsible acts. Like BoiseBYU pointed out, the ratio of violent acts to number of Muslims suggest that most Muslims are not violent. The fact that violence is against the law in Muslim countries suggests (to me at least) that they have limits. I think we would make a lot more progress by reaching out to these people rather than demonizing them.
Touche! Fair enough, I deserved that. I was probably overreacting to what seemed to be a little chippyness in your last post.
On your #1: Not sure how that can be done or maybe even what you mean exactly. It appears to me that they refuse to be left alone. Otherwise, I am sure we would gladly do it.
Your #2: To the point of Islam being pretty much like every other religion. I don't understand how you can seriously make that claim. I don't see any other religions that are sponsoring or growing terrorists. I don't see any other religions that are intent on taking over the world by whatever means is necessary. I don't see any other religions that will kill one of their own for converting to another religion. I don't see any other religions with anything as oppressive as Sharia law. I don't see any other religions that will produce death threats for speaking out against them or for burning a book of scripture. Heck Baptists don't even do that.
However, on the second half of #2, I totally agree with you. I will add to that that the very reasons I agree with you on the second part relate to the reasons I disagree on the first part. As American's lose liberties we become more like Islam. I believe that there are many people that would have America like Islam, not for any real religious value but for the control. Keep in mind that all previous attempts to rule the world or a part of it by secular means only ended up falling to power derived from Christian values. If anyone is going to rule the world they have to eliminate America and to bring down America you must first wipe out Christian values. To start drawing comparisons or raising up Islam to the same level as Christian values only serves to degrade the latter.
Besides, if bullets ever start flying I don't want to die for Islam because some fool said Mormons and Muslims are all the same. Jews I am prepared to stand with but Muslims, no.
Which brings me to your other questions. I have no bandaid for the problems presented by the political and religious beliefs of people in the middle east. That is why it scares me. It may have sounded a little paranoid for me to mention bullets flying but can anyone doubt that that is exactly where this is headed?
BoiseBYU won't mind me saying that I disagree with his analysis because his methodology is flawed. If you are only counting the number of suicide bombers then yes, that would constitute a minority. But there are many more crimes that we need to include in the picture. Those would be all moral crimes committed by our values, not theirs. I am talking about crimes of cultural/political origin that would not be acceptable to us. Before you start saying that we have crimes just like they have crimes, the difference is that the crimes I am talking about have either tradition in Islam or are sidestepped by their culture. Once we have broadened the scope of what we include in the measure of crimes, then we have to take into consideration that those who commit the crimes were not living on an island. They did not invent themselves and they did not commit the crimes by themselves. They had teachers and they had help. Then we must factor in the number that don't show up in any records because they were never caught. Maybe a statistician would care to way in on this? My point is to get an accurate picture you have to account for all of the people that perpetuate the criminal activity and not just the criminals themselves.
Which brings me back to Sharia law. Anyone with sympathies toward Sharia law becomes part of the problem. That is what is see and the conundrum regarding good Muslim v. bad Muslim.
As far as reaching out to them. Most definitely yes, as we should with all people. We should be exporting the US constitution all over the world. However, Muslims have a long way to go before I can justify trusting them.