Good replacement for Omer?

[craigoscarson]

In other news, the French are blaming Jay Omer and Tom Holmoe for their early world cup exit and the declining euro...

[CannonCougar85]

I have spoke to many players who feel that Omer is a great trainer and an especially good strength coach. All of them said that they have gotten stronger with Omer across the board.

That being said a few of them did say that Omer is not a speed coach and that they don't think there are many players that get faster under Omer.

I think suggesting that Omer be fired is ridiculous. His benefits far outweigh the negatives. But, based off of what I have heard, I think it would be of great benefit to BYU football if a speed specialist/coach was hired to focus on speed positions.

[taekwondave]

Did you guys really forget how many groin and hamstring injuries we had last year? And the year before? And the year before? This is a common theme. And you don't stretch before workouts you stretch after workouts. Stretching before causes tearing. Mckay Jacobsen tore his hammy stretching in pre-game warmups. Missed a few games didn't he? I know Omer's strategy. I know the complaints that have come from many in BYU about his outdated training methods. I've spoken with trainers who cringe at the sound of his name and can name you twenty stupid things he's doing to our football players. I do remember people chanting the P90x thing too. I couldn't tell you what P90x would or wouldn't do for an athlete but I COULD tell you what yoga would do for a football team. Especially by way of groin and hamstring injuries. Why hasn't he been replaced yet? Well, you could argue that we don't have THAT many more injuries on average than other teams. But to me that doesn't cut it. Other teams might be using the same outdated methods. That just proves more trainers are doing stupid things, it doesn't prove we shouldn't replace our guy. I LIKE Omer as a guy. He's funny. He's good-natured. But man...athletes that don't get extra help are at risk with his methods. This may be pointless to even talk about because I'm not sure BYU has even come off of their hiring freeze. Omer might only still have a job because of that and everyone is giving him the benefit of the doubt because they like and trust Mendenhall. I do too but I have to wonder if that's the only reason Omer is still here.

And it's not just hammies and groins. It's knees too. Knee injuries are GREATLY reduced with proper training. And we all know what kinds of problems we've had there with linemen. Or have we SERIOUSLY forgotten that? I was on cougarblue a few months ago and EVERYONE was complaining about the number of totally preventable injuries our team was sustaining. Am I taking crazy pills? I guess I'll just leave this alone until fall ball and the first few weeks of the season proves this point again and we remember what we seem to have suddenly forgotten with all this expansion talk. And please...PLEASE try to remember how slow we were compared to TCU, and if you think speed can't be taught and trained then you've been watching Omer too long. I left a link for this guy up top because he's a clear example of someone that understands this. Shaving two tenths of a second off of forty times for people that just got done working out with Omer for four years tells me something. I bet Harvey is faster in a few months than he ever was at BYU.

As for our success, I'd say we have great schemes and good coaching and we go with what continually works. We might even be a well-conditioned (as in pure endurance) team but there are too many knee, hammie and groin injuries not to make you stop and think. And there are also too many guys that arrive here and never get any faster than they were in high school and in many cases, lose a step for us not to want some answers.

So, you want to sack Holmoe, you want to sack Omer... Anyone else?

Sack Holmoe? What are you talking about? Have you read my posts? I have nothing against Holmoe. In fact you may find NOBODY speaks as highly of him as our AD as I have. What a weird thing to say.

[taekwondave]

"You lost all credibility with me, when you said you don't stretch prior to workouts."

"often that the primary cause of most injury in sports is lack of proper stretch and warm-up prior to strenous exercise."

I think you heard the second part wrong at your conference. Lack of proper stretching IS the leading cause of injury (hence my belief yoga should be implemented, duh) and not warming up prior to strenuous exercise is another leading cause of injury, but not warming up AND stretching before strenuous exercise. I could take MORE time off work right now to go find you fifty reputable sources that say there is NO benefit to pre-workout stretching, but if you spent a few minutes you could find something yourself. No benefit to stretching before a workout has ever been found. Stretching at the end of one? Now THAT'S another story. At the end of football practice and at the end of games and at the end of workouts, THAT is when you want to stretch. It only takes half a brain to realize that a COLD MUSCLE DOESN'T STRETCH, BUT TEARS.

I've done taekwondo my whole life (hence the name). Nobody has done more pre-workout stretching than yours truly. Always thought it helped. The science just doesn't support it, and my torn hamstring and groin are living testaments to it (both torn while stretching before class). Stretching before a workout is POINTLESS. I don't care if every athlete in the whole world does it. Every athlete in the whole world can put their pants on left-foot first every morning too because they were misinformed about its benefits but that doesn't make it helpful. Maybe I should start crossing myself whenever I do something good and point at the sky because that's what so many great athletes do...

You need look no further than Mckay Jacobsen to see the problem with pre-game stretching. But there are plenty of noteworthy studies that'll prove it to you if that's not enough.

[SpiffCoug]

I'm not a scientist, nor a workout professional. But I run cross country in high school and workout every day as part of my National Guard duties.

In high school we always ran for 5-10 minutes slowly (usually down to the track, a lap or two and then back to the team area) to warm up followed by a short team stretch (hitting each group once) before our run. Then after our run we would have a good, long team stretch (maybe ten minutes, stretching each muscle group twice). I never had any hamstring or muscle pull issues.

Nowadays, I get on the elliptical or stationary bike for 10 minutes before I work out. I'll stretch each muscle group I work out quickly before I start my routine and then after the workout, I'll get back on the bike for another 10 minutes and then stretch the muscles I worked again.

Again, never had any muscle pull issues.

I imagine many of the BYU muscle issues are because they are/were stretching too much, too early before their muscles were sufficiently warmed up.

Again, I'm not an expert, just a normal guy who's worked out pretty regularly, for pretty much 20 years, and never had a muscle pull. Granted, I've been a D1 athlete, but that's my take.

[taekwondave]

As for Omer getting props from some NFL guys, obviously I have nothing to say about it. I know he got the job at BYU SOMEHOW. But in light of many advances in the field in the last decade or so, he seems to me to have been left behind. When I stopped training with Omer and our team got a new conditioning coach at BYU our injuries STOPPED. Confused by this we talked to our new trainer. That trainer explained the weaknesses in Omer's training and that trainer is only one of many trainers at BYU that feel this way.

Now, maybe this is the least of our worries right now. Fine. It wasn't the least of our worries when Mckay went down last year. As I recall there was a slew of others that felt that injury was the last straw with Omer, but maybe I'm talking to a different crowd, or at least one with short memories.

I think it would be foolish to assume that Omer is still the strength and conditioning coach because that's what's best for BYU when we are in the middle of a hiring freeze. That right there COULD be the only reason he's still here. I don't know.

Let's not downplay the importance of speed on here guys. There are CLEARLY other things that can matter more. Austin Collie wasn't the fastest guy around but he got it done. Jerry Rice, actually, wasn't the fastest guy around and OBVIOUSLY he got it done. But BOTH those guys could have benefited from a little more speed anyway. I don't think a little more speed hurts anybody. But torn knee ligaments, pulled hammies and groins hurt. They hurt a team a lot.

I'm not blaming Omer for the lefranc thing. I think that had nothing to do with his training. I got a lefranc injury jumping on a trampoline. It's a freak thing that almost never happens. Hamstrings, groins, and knee problems though are a classic sign up poor training, pure and simple.

[taekwondave]

Oh, and in case you guys think I'm suggesting this Stroshine guy cause I like him or something, I'm pretty sure I got in a fight with his little brother in high school. I'm not a fan of anyone with that last name I just think we could do better than Omer. It probably looks like I have something personal against him but I don't. (Except for a shoulder injury that took six months to heal. But I don't take that personally. We ALL had shoulder injuries with him. That's why we switched trainers.) We're not USC. We can't have our three and four star guys go down with hammy pulls and just replace them with no problem. When we lose those guys to something OTHER than missions it just hurts.

[craigoscarson]

"You lost all credibility with me, when you said you don't stretch prior to workouts."

"often that the primary cause of most injury in sports is lack of proper stretch and warm-up prior to strenous exercise."

I think you heard the second part wrong at your conference. Lack of proper stretching IS the leading cause of injury (hence my belief yoga should be implemented, duh) and not warming up prior to strenuous exercise is another leading cause of injury, but not warming up AND stretching before strenuous exercise. I could take MORE time off work right now to go find you fifty reputable sources that say there is NO benefit to pre-workout stretching, but if you spent a few minutes you could find something yourself. No benefit to stretching before a workout has ever been found. Stretching at the end of one? Now THAT'S another story. At the end of football practice and at the end of games and at the end of workouts, THAT is when you want to stretch. It only takes half a brain to realize that a COLD MUSCLE DOESN'T STRETCH, BUT TEARS.

I've done taekwondo my whole life (hence the name). Nobody has done more pre-workout stretching than yours truly. Always thought it helped. The science just doesn't support it, and my torn hamstring and groin are living testaments to it (both torn while stretching before class). Stretching before a workout is POINTLESS. I don't care if every athlete in the whole world does it. Every athlete in the whole world can put their pants on left-foot first every morning too because they were misinformed about its benefits but that doesn't make it helpful. Maybe I should start crossing myself whenever I do something good and point at the sky because that's what so many great athletes do...

You need look no further than Mckay Jacobsen to see the problem with pre-game stretching. But there are plenty of noteworthy studies that'll prove it to you if that's not enough.

I have no knowledge of how McKay Jacobson was stretching, if he didn't bother with any warmup prior to stretching, if he had a prexisting injury, etc. etc. and I certainly can't pin that on Jay Omer.

You find me an article from a physician, or exercise physiologist with a doctorate and I might just believe you. The UPMC guys were all just that, including Tim Grover, the former head trainer of the Chicago Bulls. Warmup and adequate pre-strenous exercise stretching prevents injury, of this I have little doubt.

http://www.upmc.com/SERVICES/SPORTSMEDI ... fault.aspx

And tearing muscle isn't always a bad idea like you suggest. In fact that's how muscle hypertrophy occurs.

Sometimes a little knowledge is dangerous and sadly quackery is rampant in the state of Utah; (i.e. the herbal medicine capital of the country) I could drag you into any GNC and point out 200+ different remedies that have no medical basis,

Go check out a major league baseball game, all they do is stretch, jog, stretch, jog then take a little BP. These are multimillion dollar businesses and if they felt that pregame stretching could increase injury they'd stop doing it.

Apparently, these guys think pregame stretching is a good idea. I'd be willing to bet that the Lakers had enough $$ to protect the best hoops player in the world with a few educated trainers...

[taekwondave]

"According to an stone et al in his article which reviewed researches on stretching (December 206, Strength and Conditioning Journal, vol 28, No 6, p66-74)), stretching may not be as wonderful as we were made to believe.
Stretching during pre-game warm up has not been shown to enhance performance. In fact, the reverse was observed to occur. Pre-game stretching has been shown to diminish maximum strength and explosive strength, resulting in decreased performance in sports such as sprinting, static jumps, gymnastics.
What about doing stretches after a game? Does it help? Is it useful at all? A review of the studies done by the author showed that post game stretching can bring about some benefits such as increased muscle force production which translates into faster running speed, improved vertical jumps. However the underlying mechanism remains unclear to the authors.
What about the claim that stretching can reduce the risk of suffering from injuries? Studies have shown that pre-game stretching has little or no effect at all on the rate of injury except in sports which require a greater ROM (range of motion) such as gymnastics (doing splits, handstands), golf (trunk rotation).
So to stretch or not to stretch? In summary, the authors do not encourage stretching pre-game unless you need to achieve a certain ROM for the sports to perform effectively without injury. However as stated before, it is important to remember that pre-game stretching can reduce maximum and explosive muscle force production. As such pre-game stretching should be kept as short as possible to minimise the detrimental effects. Emphasis on maintaining ROM of each sports can be done by doing stretches after game or training and on off days. Post game stretches are also encouraged for their benefical effects of increased muscle force production."

http://myfitnessfanatics.com/?p=10

"Overwhelming research concludes that pre-exercise stretching, especially for those who do not use short bursts of muscular activity, may result in a reduction in performance of up to five percent. At best, literature shows that weeks of regular stretching exercises, in conjunction with warm ups, may help athletes reduce injury by up to five percent. This small percentage may help athletes who use short bursts of energy such as sprinters improve their fifty-yard running speed by fractions of a second. Other sports that use continuous movements, such as cycling, should not expect the same benefits. Regardless of research, athletes, especially runners, continue to stretch, attempting to reduce injuries and increase their performance. More detailed studies and research are needed to find all possible neurological effects of stretching." Shrier, Ian. "When and Whom to Stretch?." Physician & Sportsmedicine 33.3(2005): 22-26.

[craigoscarson]

"According to an stone et al in his article which reviewed researches on stretching (December 206, Strength and Conditioning Journal, vol 28, No 6, p66-74)), stretching may not be as wonderful as we were made to believe.
Stretching during pre-game warm up has not been shown to enhance performance. In fact, the reverse was observed to occur. Pre-game stretching has been shown to diminish maximum strength and explosive strength, resulting in decreased performance in sports such as sprinting, static jumps, gymnastics.
What about doing stretches after a game? Does it help? Is it useful at all? A review of the studies done by the author showed that post game stretching can bring about some benefits such as increased muscle force production which translates into faster running speed, improved vertical jumps. However the underlying mechanism remains unclear to the authors.
What about the claim that stretching can reduce the risk of suffering from injuries? Studies have shown that pre-game stretching has little or no effect at all on the rate of injury except in sports which require a greater ROM (range of motion) such as gymnastics (doing splits, handstands), golf (trunk rotation).
So to stretch or not to stretch? In summary, the authors do not encourage stretching pre-game unless you need to achieve a certain ROM for the sports to perform effectively without injury. However as stated before, it is important to remember that pre-game stretching can reduce maximum and explosive muscle force production. As such pre-game stretching should be kept as short as possible to minimise the detrimental effects. Emphasis on maintaining ROM of each sports can be done by doing stretches after game or training and on off days. Post game stretches are also encouraged for their benefical effects of increased muscle force production."

http://myfitnessfanatics.com/?p=10

"Overwhelming research concludes that pre-exercise stretching, especially for those who do not use short bursts of muscular activity, may result in a reduction in performance of up to five percent. At best, literature shows that weeks of regular stretching exercises, in conjunction with warm ups, may help athletes reduce injury by up to five percent. This small percentage may help athletes who use short bursts of energy such as sprinters improve their fifty-yard running speed by fractions of a second. Other sports that use continuous movements, such as cycling, should not expect the same benefits. Regardless of research, athletes, especially runners, continue to stretch, attempting to reduce injuries and increase their performance. More detailed studies and research are needed to find all possible neurological effects of stretching." Shrier, Ian. "When and Whom to Stretch?." Physician & Sportsmedicine 33.3(2005): 22-26.

Overwhelming research concludes that pre-exercise stretching, especially for those who do not use short bursts of muscular activity may result in a reduction in performance of up to five percent

.... you mean like football?

try again, these articles do not suggest what you're suggesting... and the 1st article is not in a scientfic journal nor does it cite verifed scientific study; however it does state that stretching is beneficial in sports that require high degree ROM and short bursts of muscular activity........... like football.

The 2nd article backs up what we're saying...

weeks of regular stretching exercises, in conjunction with warm ups, may help athletes reduce injury by up to five percent. This small percentage may help athletes who use short bursts of energy such as sprinters improve their fifty-yard running speed by fractions of a second

these articles certainly do not address your assertion that pregame stretching increases injury and should not be done...