Bin Laden dead.

[snoscythe]

...a declaration made by the First Presidency concerning war,

“… the Church is and must be against war. The Church itself cannot wage war unless and until the Lord shall issue new commands. It cannot regard war as a righteous means of settling international disputes; these should and could be settled—the nations agreeing—by peaceful negotiations and adjustments.”

What does that mean to you?

I encourage anyone who reads that brief except to read the entire statement by the First Presidency rather than the part convenient to jvquarterback's argument. You'll find the global message to be much different that these two sentences under the heading "Separation of Church and State." It's always interesting to run down quotes people use on forums without linking to the full message. Funny what some context can do for you:

http://www.latterdayconservative.com/ar ... residency/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jvquarterback]

I think President Lee gives plenty of context. Thankfully I beat you to the reference or people might believe your implication that I've taken the prophets out of context. The words are entirely in context and I also invite everyone to read the full text you cited (it is actually under the heading Church Membership and Army Service) as well as what President Lee said, lest you believe snocythe's assertion that I have somehow altered the meaning of their words.

[snoscythe]

I think President Lee gives plenty of context. Thankfully I beat you to the reference or people might believe your implication that I've taken the prophets out of context. The words are entirely in context and I also invite everyone to read the full text you cited (it is actually under the heading Church Membership and Army Service) as well as what President Lee said, lest you believe snocythe's assertion that I have somehow altered the meaning of their words.

Yeah, NOW there's a link to President Lee's talk....along with this little caveat "Last edited by jvquarterback on Tue May 10, 2011 3:12 pm, edited 4 times in total." In other words--edited half an hour after I noted your failure to cite and mere minutes before you responded with this disingenuous attempt. I wonder why that was edited this late in the game????? You wonder why people don't take you seriously--part of it might involve your propensity to go back and revise and edit your posts days later in the debate when you get caught on something.

You would do well to reread the second sentence of President Lee's talk before you use it to establish whether war is right or wrong: "We do not wish to enter into a controversy as to the rightness or wrongness of war, but to set at rest the torments of those who have loved ones engaged in the ugly conflicts of war."

[jvquarterback]

I'm sure what I wrote is cached with the timing of each edit. If you wish to check you should have access as you are one of the webmasters. If you haven't noticed, I edit many of my posts, mostly to take out anything that is an ad hominem attack. But it isn't like you didn't call me a liar two posts ago so this is nothing new.

President Lee was speaking at a service for men who died in Vietnam. He said those men were "innocent instrumentalities of a sovereign whom he had told them to obey and whose will they were powerless to resist.” It was a memorial service for those men so I'm sure he did not wish to bring up controversy. That does not mean we cannot learn about the rightness or wrongness of war from what he had to say.

There is no controversy as to the rightness or wrongness of war. There are only two reasons it can be justified:
1) God commands it.
2) You are defending yourself (family, home, religion, freedom).

You seem to relish defending other reasons for war and your arguments put me and my family in danger.

[snoscythe]

You have yet to persuade anyone that Iraq and Afghanistan are not fought to defend ourselves, our families, our faith, and our freedoms.

[jvquarterback]

You are the one arguing for war, don't you think the burden falls on you?

[snoscythe]

You are the one arguing for war, don't you think the burden falls on you?

The arguments t o that end have been made ad nauseum. When they were made, you started quoting prophets without context in an effort to insinuate that no war is righteous. Only now that you have been exposed for your disingenuity on that point are you now circling back to those initial grounds.

[BoiseBYU]

You have yet to persuade anyone that Iraq and Afghanistan are not fought to defend ourselves, our families, our faith, and our freedoms.

i can understand Aghanistan, but i do not see how the war in Iraq fits in? There were no weapons of mass destruction--zero--Iraq with the no fly zones and embargo etc etc was not a threat to us our families or our freedoms in any way that I can discern. We fought and occupied a country for reasons that proved to be false.

[CAFB_04-12]

CAFB presented no data. He only attacked the data I presented, so of course I went back to the data I presented. If he wants to present data to convince me my family is safer with the presence of US soldiers in the middle east I would be happy to review what he presents.

Oh, I'm sorry...I thought this was an online forum. I didn't know that I was defending my master's thesis.

I don't remember attacking anything...just expressing an opinion.

I don't remember expressing that I thought you were safer with troops in the Middle East...just that it is in the national interest to do so.

But I'm fully confident that you'll spend your time researching exactly what was said, maybe throw in a Church quote here or there, to add data to your conclusions. Congrats. You win.

[CAFB_04-12]

You have yet to persuade anyone that Iraq and Afghanistan are not fought to defend ourselves, our families, our faith, and our freedoms.

i can understand Aghanistan, but i do not see how the war in Iraq fits in? There were no weapons of mass destruction--zero--Iraq with the no fly zones and embargo etc etc was not a threat to us our families or our freedoms in any way that I can discern. We fought and occupied a country for reasons that proved to be false.

Agree 100%. No data though...