CougarCorner

Re: Was BYU Dishonest?

2010-08-24T13:20:08-06:00

Rather than personally attack me, making fun, poking at my business knowledge, using justifications, etc., etc., why dont you all counter my arguments of dishonesty with arguments to how BYU has been forthright and honest in all these dealings?
What you call "personally attacking you", others would call "questioning your unsubstantiated definition of honesty". If you get to define "dishonesty" any old way you choose, then you'll be able to call anyone you want dishonest. If you are forced to use an objective standard of honesty, then you'll not be able to do so. However, when being forced to use an objective standard for defining honesty (or, "dishonesty") you call it a personal attack. Simply put, you don't want an answer to your question, what you want is acquiescence.

So true it needed to be quoted.

Statistics: Posted by Sammich — Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:20 pm

Re: Was BYU Dishonest?

2010-08-24T13:17:05-06:00

If westidahocougar's definition of dishonesty is correct, I propose the following revisions to the Book of Mormon:

1 Nephi 4:19-23
19 And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins washed and folded them neatly, for they were full of blood.
20 And after I had done this, I went forth unto the treasury of Laban. And as I went forth towards the treasury of Laban, behold, I saw the servant of Laban who had the keys of the treasury. And I commanded him in the voice of Laban, that he should go with me into the treasury. asked him nicely if he would go with me into the treasury, in spite of the fact that I had just killed his master, Laban, who also regarded my brethren and I as robbers.
21 And he supposed me to be his master, Laban, for he beheld the garments and also the sword girded about my loins. to be a good and honest man, because of my exceeding honesty, according to the words of westidahocougar.
22 And he spake unto me concerning the elders of the Jews, he knowing that his master, Laban, had been out by night among them.
23 And I spake unto him as if it had been Laban freely admitted that I had no clue what he was talking about.

Alma 43:30
And he also knowing that it was the only desire of the Nephites to preserve their lands, and their liberty, and their church, therefore he thought it no sin that he should defend them by stratagem; therefore, he found by his spies which course the Lamanites were to take however, being compelled by the wisdom of westidahocougar, he did send forth messengers unto the Lamanites, to ask them which course the Lamanites were to take, and to warn them of the coming ambush.

Alma 56:30
Now when we saw that the Lamanites began to grow uneasy on this wise, we were desirous to bring a stratagem into effect upon them; therefore Antipus ordered that I should march forth with my little sons to a neighboring city, as if we were carrying provisions to a neighboring city. However, suffering under the guilt of westidahocougar's piety, he did also send forth messengers unto the Lamanites, to let them know that my true intention was to lead them out of the city.

There may be more - maybe you guys can help me find them? Also, I need a new hero, because two of mine (Nephi and Captain Moroni) have turned out to be real douchey and dishonest, after reexamining them with this further light and knowledge from westidahocougar.

Statistics: Posted by redneckjedi — Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:17 pm

Re: Was BYU Dishonest?

2010-08-24T12:47:40-06:00

Yet you have failed to show where BYU was dishonest. When did BYU lie to anyone, tell a half truth, do something considered illegal or in violation of the MWC deal? Simply put, they have not. BYU worked to further its own interests, and this ruffled some feathers, But it was not dishonest, nor was it unethical.

Now did it show some disrespect to the other MWC teams? Sure, it did. BYU was looking to improve its situation, and in doing so, it may be leaving the MWC behind. But that is what Utah did in leaving the MWC for the PAC-12, what Boise State did in leaving the WAC for the MWC. No difference here at all. Those schools acted in self interest, and BYU is now acting in self interest as well. It is hypocritical to lambast 1 and not the others. And it is foolishness to criticize any of those moves, because they all make perfect sense for the institution involved. And I have yet to hear you write Boise State was dishonest and selfish and did anything wrong for leaving the WAC. So be consistently logical in your arguments or don't bring them, or else you are the one being intellectually dishonest.

Statistics: Posted by Lawboy — Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:47 pm

Re: Was BYU Dishonest?

2010-08-24T12:41:41-06:00

If anyone is dishonest here westidahocougar, it's you, not BYU. You are grossly misrepresenting the facts.
I know, I made this whole situation up! Ha Ha, good one.

You all have given great examples, good points. My real question from the beginning has been about BYU's honesty.

If we have been totally honest in this entire situation, than I would like to see how and where and what we have done that has been so honest IN THIS SITUATION THAT WE ARE NOW IN. Many of the situations you have described are entirely different business scenarios, whether private business or the church, etc. Good examples, but they dont fully equate to this situation.

My feeling is and will remain, if we have to ask ourselves if we are being dishonest, than we probably are. I didnt start this thread, just interjected because of my concern over the image of the church in all of this.

Where is the "we?" Other than you, who is quesitoning whether BYU was honest? The idea that BYU was dishonest or unethical in any shape or form never occurred to me until you and a few others started "asking." And, I have read just about everything coming out about this.

Westidahocougar, if you're so concerned with the image of the church as it relates to the BYU athletic department, why continue to instigate and draw attention to the issue? What's your hope here? Are you trying to somehow create enough "talk" about this that it forces the church and BYU to make an official statement and explain themselves? What would be the point of that?

As a public relations professional, I can attest that would actually be the worst thing the church/BYU could do because like you they would suddenly be drawing attention to an issue that doesn't exist.

Statistics: Posted by Gunk — Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:41 pm

Re: Was BYU Dishonest?

2010-08-24T12:08:44-06:00

If anyone is dishonest here westidahocougar, it's you, not BYU. You are grossly misrepresenting the facts.

I know, I made this whole situation up! Ha Ha, good one.

You all have given great examples, good points. My real question from the beginning has been about BYU's honesty.

If we have been totally honest in this entire situation, than I would like to see how and where and what we have done that has been so honest IN THIS SITUATION THAT WE ARE NOW IN. Many of the situations you have described are entirely different business scenarios, whether private business or the church, etc. Good examples, but they dont fully equate to this situation.

My feeling is and will remain, if we have to ask ourselves if we are being dishonest, than we probably are. I didnt start this thread, just interjected because of my concern over the image of the church in all of this.

Statistics: Posted by westidahocougar — Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: Was BYU Dishonest?

2010-08-24T11:44:27-06:00

Westidaho you have been...

Statistics: Posted by CannonCougar85 — Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:44 am

Re: Was BYU Dishonest?

2010-08-24T11:42:34-06:00

If anyone is dishonest here westidahocougar, it's you, not BYU. You are grossly misrepresenting the facts.

Statistics: Posted by gmj81 — Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:42 am

Re: Was BYU Dishonest?

2010-08-24T11:41:20-06:00

The bottom line is that BYU has to do the best for the "them and theirs". If they feel they could be making more money/exposure/BCS games in another situation, they have every right to pursue that. Just like FSU and Nevada had every right to leave the WAC and pay the $5 million to improve their situation in the MWC. As long as they abide by all the rules of the contracts previously set in place, they can be at no fault. And so far, BYU has more than abided by the contracts previously set in place, even when the other parties haven't. It's time for them to look out for #1.

Statistics: Posted by gmj81 — Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:41 am

Re: Was BYU Dishonest?

2010-08-24T11:40:58-06:00

[quote="westidahocougar]
Thanks for your business advice.

Here is where your logic and answers to my statements are wrong-

1) Evidence is coming out that shows BYU's intentions were to not only exit the MWC, but to disable their (MWC) ability to remain as a viable conference. I don't thing any leftover MWC presidents would be happy about that one, regardless of the TV deal.
2) What "bad situation" is BYU really in? Of course the TV deal isnt ideal. Nobody in the conference likes it. But we signed it and if we didnt take the time to review what we signed, than shame on our administration. Just like the honor code says, if we agree to something than we fulfill that agreement. What part of the honor code allows "underhanded" breaking of contracts. Isn't there something that talks about drawing a circle on the ground, and never going outside of that if a promise had been made? I committed to that at BYU, apparently that is not applicable to the athletic program.
3) Like I stated, it is a rumor. That is not the base for my argument. I have sources on my other argument as well, though the source wishes to remain anonymous. You tend to believe anything that promotes BYU even without a source, but anything negative that doesn't cite a source gets scorned. That could be construed as hypocrisy. And sorry, underhanded is synonymous with dishonest.
4) Tell me how BYU is being lauded for their honesty in this situation? Silence doesnt mean honesty. Facts are out, the problem is our administration is now in an akward spot because of the "apparent dishonesty" of the situation. That, more than anything else, is possibly the reason for silence to this point. Was there not a press conference scheduled for last Thursday? Why did that never happen?

I dislike your personal attacks. I am not trying to hurt anyone on the board, I really don't care. I am worried more about the reputation of BYU, my alma mater. To blindly think that these events have not cast a shadow over the athletic program or university (or church) is naive.[/quote]
[quote="westidahocougar]
Here is where your logic and answers to my statements are wrong.[/quote]

1. BYU did nothing that would have caused the MWC to crumble but the MWC did do something that can and may lead to the demise of the WAC. There were still Eight teams and that is enough.
2. Like it or not Utah is a major rival for in-state recruits, tv sets, and just about everything that makes a program a success. Utah has now upped their revenew over 10 fold. Should BYU sit back and just watch? NO. They are taking action that must be taken to ensure the product they produce does not diminish. As for the contract, I haven't read it myself so I don't know the specific terms but I would imagine that by leaving the conference the deal is null and void for them a la Utah going to the Pac-0. But I guess you do know the terms since you say that to leave the conference is against the agreement. So did MTN file their breach of contract suit vs FOX, Utah, and the Pac-0 yet? I haven't read about it yet. Maybe they are waiting to file it next year.
3. Poppycock nuff said
4. Organizations can and in most cases must discuss and plan future courses of action in private - not "secret" . Did you know at my company we had our executive meeting on Monday where we actually discussed future plans? Nothing was "secret" per se, but also everything except the lunch menu, was confidential. Do you think we want our biggest competitors learning what we are thinking or planning so they can react to them and possibly disrupt those plans? Of course not. So just because administrators at BYU met in private and have been investigating options, it doesn't make them dishonest nor unethical. Those two adjectives more closely discribe Nevada and Fresno St. Did BYU tell the MWC they would not look at becoming independent? Did they say they hadn't or wouldn't contact ESPN or the WAC? I wasn't on the phone with all the Presidents so I wouldn't know but maybe your buddy was on the phone and he would know? My gut feeling is BYU said nothing of the kind.

BYU is doing what BYU must do. They cannot sit back while schools like UNLV, New Mexico, and SDST do nothing to add value to the MWC but moreso detract from it by ensuring the MWC will never be an AQ conference. Utah has upped the ante so now BYU must act or they could possibly lose out in the long run. The money that Utah is going to get is absurd compared to what BYU will be getting. But with independence BYU could go from the 1.4 million to 6 to 8 million per season from the TV contract for first run showings of the games. You can include the advertising on the channel for replays also if BYU so chooses since they will probably own the rebroadcast rights. Spare me the sappy attempt to put down BYU and its administration, they are weak and ineffectual arguments.

Statistics: Posted by imuakahuku — Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:40 am

Re: Was BYU Dishonest?

2010-08-24T11:36:35-06:00

Furthermore, the MWC has tried to use BYU as an Oxen to pull the conference forward. None of the other top four teams in the conference have had as few games on VS and CBS-CS and as many games on the Mtn as BYU the last four years. Hmmm... Why could that be? Because they know that BYU's fans are the only way they get further distribution. But why would you want to screw over one of your insitutions and their fans that way year after year by giving them limited visibility of their team? Yeah, nothing the MWC has done has ever "hurt" BYU (tic).

Statistics: Posted by gmj81 — Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:36 am