Was BYU Dishonest?

[Sammich]

Here is the dishonesty

1) BYU negotiated with and determined the fate of the WAC and demise of the MWC while currently a member of the MWC
2) BYU's plans were "secret" dealings that were not made known to those who BYU is under ethical obligation to be affiliated with - i.e., the remaining members of the MWC.
3) Had BYU's plans worked (and the rumors of SDSU and UNLV being true) the MWC would have been destroyed and the remaining teams would have had limited options for advancement. Again, BYU is under no contractual obligation to the MWC, but unlike other schools being invited into other conferences, BYU's alleged plans were to proactively disable and ruin conference they helped create, to their own benefit.
4) Since Nevada and Fresno were also dishonest, certain schools in the WAC have been destroyed. BYU, Fresno, and Nevada are all partially to blame for the demise of the remaining programs in the WAC. Again, all of this in the name of exposure and money. (Nevada and Fresno are not religious schools nor do they abide by a strict honor code, as BYU proclaims to). Now, some of the teams in the WAC need to go away, but there are solid programs that are now left to wither in the wind - Hawaii, Utah State, La Tech.

1. BYU did what? Demise of the MWC? The MWC would be fine without BYU, the only thing that is going to fail without BYU is the MTN, and I say good riddance. Even the other MWC presidents might be happy about that one.
2. SECRET =/= DISHONEST. What other option does any school have to improve its standing in a bad situation? Tell everyone they're working out a deal to exit the conference and go to the WAC in other sports? We see now what the MWC did with that information when they got it. Stupid, stupid idea.
3. RUMORS of SDSU and UNLV. Until it's substantiated you might as well support your arguments with Samuelson's rumored screaming tantrum as well. Besides, let me point out that the MWC destroying the WAC may have been underhanded, BUT THAT'S NOT THE SAME THING AS DISHONEST.
4. What does this have to do with BYU being dishonest?

Anyway, this is all silly speculation you're making since BYU hasn't said ANYTHING yet. In fact, they haven't DONE anything either, other than looking into potential deals they could work out.

And by the way, I hope you're never my boss or in a position to make important business decisions for my company, because you're going to screw it up big time if you use this sort of crap logic.

[SpiffCoug]

BYU did nothing to lead to the demise of the WAC. The WAC will die because of the dishonesty of Fresno and Nevada. You could argue BYU leaving was actually strengthening the MWC since it would be one fewer mouth to feed. The MWC would have been at 8 teams, which is still a viable number for a conference.

As I stated earlier in this thread, I think BYU has finally been honest.

[ABYUFAN]

I have apparently found the ultimate arbiter of “honesty” and it is westidahocougar. Tell me westidaho, do you always drive the posted speed limit? Do you come to a full and complete stop at every stop sign? Do you pronounce the number “0” as zero and not “oh” ? If not, then you too are dishonest, and, as such, need to be addressed by “those who are in charge”

[gmj81]

If BYU is guilty of "dishonesty" then every business in America is going straight to hell for taking "dishonesty" to inconceivable new extremes.

[northerncougar]

If we have to ask ourselves that question, arent we leaning towards being dishonest?

BYU obviously hasnt stated anything, but there is plenty of evidence out there to support that we were less than forthright in our dealings.

Business decision or not, I am embarrassed by the fact that we have to ask ourselves and justify our "dishonesty".

I think Holmoe may be in a little too deep here.

Again, you come on here with baseless rhetoric. Where is your evidence? What has BYU done that might be dishonest? Articles? Statements? Anything? I didn't think so.

I really appreciate all the bashing. Thanks. I don't think that any of my concerns are due to baseless rhetoric. My concerns are more about the image of the church through the reckless actions of our (BYU's) athletic department.

No evidence? Here are the facts of this whole situation. I agree that BYU has not said anything or issued any statements officially declaring intent. But in a court of law, the intent would be proved by the facts that have come out.

1) BYU was to announce going independent in football, and play in bb in the WAC
2) BYU had drafted up agreements with WAC commissioner Karl Benson as to the details and exposure
3) BYU had discussed agreements with Utah State about basketball and football games based on this plan
4) BYU had some hand in developing buyouts with members of the WAC
5) BYU had contacted WAC and MWC bowl tie ins to ensure their selection
6) Details of what the WAC/BYU had agreed upon are now out, public knowledge
7) BYU had expressed dissatisfaction with the current MWC TV deal, numerous times, as did other schools.

Here are the rumors

1) BYU contacted SDSU and UNLV to move to the WAC
2) BYU thinks they are the Notre Dame of the West - dumb rumor created by BYU haters
3) BYU expected BSU to stay in the WAC
4) BYU is working with Texas to develop a TV broadcasting partership
5) BYU is reacting to Utah going to the PAC-10

Here is the dishonesty

1) BYU negotiated with and determined the fate of the WAC and demise of the MWC while currently a member of the MWC
2) BYU's plans were "secret" dealings that were not made known to those who BYU is under ethical obligation to be affiliated with - i.e., the remaining members of the MWC.
3) Had BYU's plans worked (and the rumors of SDSU and UNLV being true) the MWC would have been destroyed and the remaining teams would have had limited options for advancement. Again, BYU is under no contractual obligation to the MWC, but unlike other schools being invited into other conferences, BYU's alleged plans were to proactively disable and ruin conference they helped create, to their own benefit.
4) Since Nevada and Fresno were also dishonest, certain schools in the WAC have been destroyed. BYU, Fresno, and Nevada are all partially to blame for the demise of the remaining programs in the WAC. Again, all of this in the name of exposure and money. (Nevada and Fresno are not religious schools nor do they abide by a strict honor code, as BYU proclaims to). Now, some of the teams in the WAC need to go away, but there are solid programs that are now left to wither in the wind - Hawaii, Utah State, La Tech.

Here are my thoughts

1) BYU does not appear to be honest and forthright in this situation, according to actual facts that have come out.
2) BYU has a much larger target on their back due to religious standards and affiliations, so when there is an appearance of dishonesty, it gets blown out of proportion.
3) If BYU football is an avenue to "show off" the church in any way, than the actions taken have backfired, and created more angst and hate than was already there.
4) This may not be a big deal in a couple weeks, but I feel that this whole situation from Pres. Samuelson through the AD has been handled poorly, giving a bad image to the church.
5) What is church leadership ultimately going to do to clean up the situation? Despite some of us thinking it is not a mess, it is, and something needs to be done, some statement, anything to improve PR.

Thats all, take it for what its worth.

Remind me to never do business with you because you don't have a clue.

[westidahocougar]

Here is the dishonesty

1) BYU negotiated with and determined the fate of the WAC and demise of the MWC while currently a member of the MWC
2) BYU's plans were "secret" dealings that were not made known to those who BYU is under ethical obligation to be affiliated with - i.e., the remaining members of the MWC.
3) Had BYU's plans worked (and the rumors of SDSU and UNLV being true) the MWC would have been destroyed and the remaining teams would have had limited options for advancement. Again, BYU is under no contractual obligation to the MWC, but unlike other schools being invited into other conferences, BYU's alleged plans were to proactively disable and ruin conference they helped create, to their own benefit.
4) Since Nevada and Fresno were also dishonest, certain schools in the WAC have been destroyed. BYU, Fresno, and Nevada are all partially to blame for the demise of the remaining programs in the WAC. Again, all of this in the name of exposure and money. (Nevada and Fresno are not religious schools nor do they abide by a strict honor code, as BYU proclaims to). Now, some of the teams in the WAC need to go away, but there are solid programs that are now left to wither in the wind - Hawaii, Utah State, La Tech.

1. BYU did what? Demise of the MWC? The MWC would be fine without BYU, the only thing that is going to fail without BYU is the MTN, and I say good riddance. Even the other MWC presidents might be happy about that one.
2. SECRET =/= DISHONEST. What other option does any school have to improve its standing in a bad situation? Tell everyone they're working out a deal to exit the conference and go to the WAC in other sports? We see now what the MWC did with that information when they got it. Stupid, stupid idea.
3. RUMORS of SDSU and UNLV. Until it's substantiated you might as well support your arguments with Samuelson's rumored screaming tantrum as well. Besides, let me point out that the MWC destroying the WAC may have been underhanded, BUT THAT'S NOT THE SAME THING AS DISHONEST.
4. What does this have to do with BYU being dishonest?

Anyway, this is all silly speculation you're making since BYU hasn't said ANYTHING yet. In fact, they haven't DONE anything either, other than looking into potential deals they could work out.

And by the way, I hope you're never my boss or in a position to make important business decisions for my company, because you're going to screw it up big time if you use this sort of crap logic.

Thanks for your business advice.

Here is where your logic and answers to my statements are wrong-

1) Evidence is coming out that shows BYU's intentions were to not only exit the MWC, but to disable their (MWC) ability to remain as a viable conference. I don't thing any leftover MWC presidents would be happy about that one, regardless of the TV deal.
2) What "bad situation" is BYU really in? Of course the TV deal isnt ideal. Nobody in the conference likes it. But we signed it and if we didnt take the time to review what we signed, than shame on our administration. Just like the honor code says, if we agree to something than we fulfill that agreement. What part of the honor code allows "underhanded" breaking of contracts. Isn't there something that talks about drawing a circle on the ground, and never going outside of that if a promise had been made? I committed to that at BYU, apparently that is not applicable to the athletic program.
3) Like I stated, it is a rumor. That is not the base for my argument. I have sources on my other argument as well, though the source wishes to remain anonymous. You tend to believe anything that promotes BYU even without a source, but anything negative that doesn't cite a source gets scorned. That could be construed as hypocrisy. And sorry, underhanded is synonymous with dishonest.
4) Tell me how BYU is being lauded for their honesty in this situation? Silence doesnt mean honesty. Facts are out, the problem is our administration is now in an akward spot because of the "apparent dishonesty" of the situation. That, more than anything else, is possibly the reason for silence to this point. Was there not a press conference scheduled for last Thursday? Why did that never happen?

I dislike your personal attacks. I am not trying to hurt anyone on the board, I really don't care. I am worried more about the reputation of BYU, my alma mater. To blindly think that these events have not cast a shadow over the athletic program or university (or church) is naive.

[hawkwing]

If BYU is guilty of "dishonesty" then every business in America is going straight to hell for taking "dishonesty" to inconceivable new extremes.

And so is the Church because they often plan out, sometimes for years in advance, where they are going to place temples and meeting places without telling zoning commissions and city/government leaders.

[CannonCougar85]

By Westidahos argument then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is also dishonest.

Think about when the church builds temples. Does the church point out and announce every single tract of land that they are considering for a new temple? No they don't at all. Nobody hears about a new temple until after the building permits are already completed. Why does the church operate in this fashion? The reason is simple. If the church announced every piece of land they were considering then they are opening themselves up to people complaining about and/or suing over a certain piece of land. But if the church does it in darkness then they are able to go ahead with their plans without interference.

Is it dishonest? NO.
Is it shady in any manner? NO.
Is it illegal? NO.

This is exactly what BYU did with this independent deal. Did BYU point out and announce every single option that they were considering? No not at all. Nobody heard about it until is was already finished. Why does BYU operate in this fashion? The reason is simple. If BYU announced every option and plan they were considering then they are opening themselves up to people ruining and/or destroying that option. But if BYU does it in darkness then they are able to go ahead with their plans without interference.

Is it dishonest? NO.
Is it shady in any manner? NO.
Is it illegal? NO.

[westidahocougar]

Rather than personally attack me, making fun, poking at my business knowledge, using justifications, etc., etc., why dont you all counter my arguments of dishonesty with arguments to how BYU has been forthright and honest in all these dealings?

[CannonCougar85]

Rather than personally attack me, making fun, poking at my business knowledge, using justifications, etc., etc., why dont you all counter my arguments of dishonesty with arguments to how BYU has been forthright and honest in all these dealings?

See above.