Hurry and pass gun control before we have time to read it!

[cornhole153]

So just answer me this--why does the church prohibit guns (except in rare circumstances) on their property (excluding possibly parking lots)?

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

If you would have used this language in your origonal post, we'd have moved on 8 to 10 pages ago. You keep like this, avoiding hyperbole, and we'll get along just fine

Okay--I had to go back and see my original to see all the hyperbole that's caused such an unnecessary ruckus. Here it is....

"Interesting though that the church has a strict ban on guns (except for on duty officers that are required to carry) on their properties."

I guess I really should have added that bit about parking lots... So funny.

"Strict ban" =/= "prohibit"
""off duty officers" =/= "rare circumstances"

I can't find a single state that requires off duty officers to carry, so I concluded that only on-duty officers would be required to carry. You continue to claim that all off-duty officers are required to carry (to church), without producing a single cite? Yeah, I'm the one using hyperbole.

Guess my original statement, after 8 pages of attacks, remains unblemished.

"Interesting though that the church has a strict ban on guns (except for on duty officers that are required to carry) on their properties."

No - you are wrong. You post that you cannot find a single "state" that requires off-duty L.E. officers to carry concealed weapons off-duty.

This shows how inexperienced and naive you are. It's not the state that requires -it's the individuals police departments that have requirements for their officers to carry. It's called a police force multiplier. By having their off-duty officers carry, they multiply their presence in the community.

Here's the question - show a single state that bans off-duty L.E. officers from carrying concealed weapons. You can't - and they do.

I know you think you have all the answers - you don't. It's part of that liberal disease where you think your the smartest guy in the room. Your not.

I probably should have said I couldn't find a single "agency" (rather than "state") that required off duty cops to carry. So what? I may be "inexperienced" and "naive" but you are grasping at straws and my original statement still stands.

All off duty cops can carry under fed law (GW signed). Again so what? It's Church policy that only cops that are REQUIRED to carry, can enter with a gun.

[cornhole153]

FOUR accidentally shot (including a 2 year old and a 13 year old) in Baton Rouge last month alone.

http://theadvocate.com/news/police/5044 ... accidental" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Would be interesting to compare how often guns are used to kill attackers verses how often they are used in accidental deaths.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

Your wish is my command. Not hard to find. Heard stats like this last week from another source too.

A widely-known study conducted by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz in the 1990s found that there were somewhere between 830,000 and 2.45 million U.S. defensive gun uses annually. A National Crime Victimization Study (NCVS) which asked victims if they had used a gun in self-defense found that about 108,000 each year had done so. A big problem with the NCVS line of survey reasoning, however, is that it only includes those uses where a citizen kills a criminal, not when one is only wounded, is held by the intended victim until police arrive, or when brandishing a gun caused a criminal to flee.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2 ... rol-lobby/

Accidental gun deaths per year have been about 850 of which less than 200 are under 18 and that includes accidental police shootings, people mistaking family memebers for an intruder, hunting accident, and so on (this includes all guns not just hand guns).

A little eye opening aint it? 108k killed 803k-2.45million used to protect and in the vast majority of cases the gun is never fired. And there are some experts that think it might even be higher because of all the unreported uses to protect oneself. So do you think of those 2.45 million times, how many murders do you think were thwarted? How many rapes?

My recommendation to you is to go to a gun range and take a safety course and practice and see how it feels. If you don't feel any more responsible after the course and firing the gun then keep up the fight against guns. But I'm willing to bet that you will see what it feels like to posses such a deadly instrument and how vigilant you become while having it and then imagine how you would feel to point it at someone and how much you really really really don't want to ever have to fire it at another human being.

"108k killed'? Are you saying that 108K attackers were killed in a single year?

[imuakahuku]

FOUR accidentally shot (including a 2 year old and a 13 year old) in Baton Rouge last month alone.

http://theadvocate.com/news/police/5044 ... accidental" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Would be interesting to compare how often guns are used to kill attackers verses how often they are used in accidental deaths.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

Your wish is my command. Not hard to find. Heard stats like this last week from another source too.

A widely-known study conducted by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz in the 1990s found that there were somewhere between 830,000 and 2.45 million U.S. defensive gun uses annually. A National Crime Victimization Study (NCVS) which asked victims if they had used a gun in self-defense found that about 108,000 each year had done so. A big problem with the NCVS line of survey reasoning, however, is that it only includes those uses where a citizen kills a criminal, not when one is only wounded, is held by the intended victim until police arrive, or when brandishing a gun caused a criminal to flee.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2 ... rol-lobby/

Accidental gun deaths per year have been about 850 of which less than 200 are under 18 and that includes accidental police shootings, people mistaking family memebers for an intruder, hunting accident, and so on (this includes all guns not just hand guns).

A little eye opening aint it? 108k killed 803k-2.45million used to protect and in the vast majority of cases the gun is never fired. And there are some experts that think it might even be higher because of all the unreported uses to protect oneself. So do you think of those 2.45 million times, how many murders do you think were thwarted? How many rapes?

My recommendation to you is to go to a gun range and take a safety course and practice and see how it feels. If you don't feel any more responsible after the course and firing the gun then keep up the fight against guns. But I'm willing to bet that you will see what it feels like to posses such a deadly instrument and how vigilant you become while having it and then imagine how you would feel to point it at someone and how much you really really really don't want to ever have to fire it at another human being.

"108k killed'? Are you saying that 108K attackers were killed in a single year?

The NCVS said that not me. Take it up with them if you don't believe the numbers.

[scott715]

http://cnsnews.com/blog/gregory-gwyn-wi ... embers-day" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

500,000 new members.

[cornhole153]

FOUR accidentally shot (including a 2 year old and a 13 year old) in Baton Rouge last month alone.

http://theadvocate.com/news/police/5044 ... accidental" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Would be interesting to compare how often guns are used to kill attackers verses how often they are used in accidental deaths.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

Your wish is my command. Not hard to find. Heard stats like this last week from another source too.

A widely-known study conducted by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz in the 1990s found that there were somewhere between 830,000 and 2.45 million U.S. defensive gun uses annually. A National Crime Victimization Study (NCVS) which asked victims if they had used a gun in self-defense found that about 108,000 each year had done so. A big problem with the NCVS line of survey reasoning, however, is that it only includes those uses where a citizen kills a criminal, not when one is only wounded, is held by the intended victim until police arrive, or when brandishing a gun caused a criminal to flee.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2 ... rol-lobby/

Accidental gun deaths per year have been about 850 of which less than 200 are under 18 and that includes accidental police shootings, people mistaking family memebers for an intruder, hunting accident, and so on (this includes all guns not just hand guns).

A little eye opening aint it? 108k killed 803k-2.45million used to protect and in the vast majority of cases the gun is never fired. And there are some experts that think it might even be higher because of all the unreported uses to protect oneself. So do you think of those 2.45 million times, how many murders do you think were thwarted? How many rapes?

My recommendation to you is to go to a gun range and take a safety course and practice and see how it feels. If you don't feel any more responsible after the course and firing the gun then keep up the fight against guns. But I'm willing to bet that you will see what it feels like to posses such a deadly instrument and how vigilant you become while having it and then imagine how you would feel to point it at someone and how much you really really really don't want to ever have to fire it at another human being.

"108k killed'? Are you saying that 108K attackers were killed in a single year?

The NCVS said that not me. Take it up with them if you don't believe the numbers.

FBI says there are about 260 justifiable homicides a year. Weird. Not sure where the NCVS is getting the other 107,740...

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... a-table-15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, if the FBI is be believed, a gun owner is more than 3 times more likely to shoot and kill an innocent bystander than an attacker.

[Ddawg]

Ok mr. cornhole -

Go ahead and give one documented incident where an off-duty L.E. officer was told he could not bring his concealed weapon into an LDS Church in Utah. Good luck. You won't find it.

Also, when police dept.'s require their off-duty officers to carry concealed weapons as a force multiplier - those are internal policies - you won't find those either. You're grasping at straws and trying to save face. I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

[SpiffCoug]

So, back to the original question, and one posed to corn hole: Should a gun control law include exemptions for law enforcement officials?

Cornhole, can I get an answer?

And I still haven't seen anything showing a Church-wide ban on weapons - just a public notification of one for church buildings in one in Utah.

Still waiting.

[imuakahuku]

FOUR accidentally shot (including a 2 year old and a 13 year old) in Baton Rouge last month alone.

http://theadvocate.com/news/police/5044 ... accidental" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Would be interesting to compare how often guns are used to kill attackers verses how often they are used in accidental deaths.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

Your wish is my command. Not hard to find. Heard stats like this last week from another source too.

A widely-known study conducted by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz in the 1990s found that there were somewhere between 830,000 and 2.45 million U.S. defensive gun uses annually. A National Crime Victimization Study (NCVS) which asked victims if they had used a gun in self-defense found that about 108,000 each year had done so. A big problem with the NCVS line of survey reasoning, however, is that it only includes those uses where a citizen kills a criminal, not when one is only wounded, is held by the intended victim until police arrive, or when brandishing a gun caused a criminal to flee.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2 ... rol-lobby/

Accidental gun deaths per year have been about 850 of which less than 200 are under 18 and that includes accidental police shootings, people mistaking family memebers for an intruder, hunting accident, and so on (this includes all guns not just hand guns).

A little eye opening aint it? 108k killed 803k-2.45million used to protect and in the vast majority of cases the gun is never fired. And there are some experts that think it might even be higher because of all the unreported uses to protect oneself. So do you think of those 2.45 million times, how many murders do you think were thwarted? How many rapes?

My recommendation to you is to go to a gun range and take a safety course and practice and see how it feels. If you don't feel any more responsible after the course and firing the gun then keep up the fight against guns. But I'm willing to bet that you will see what it feels like to posses such a deadly instrument and how vigilant you become while having it and then imagine how you would feel to point it at someone and how much you really really really don't want to ever have to fire it at another human being.

"108k killed'? Are you saying that 108K attackers were killed in a single year?

The NCVS said that not me. Take it up with them if you don't believe the numbers.

FBI says there are about 260 justifiable homicides a year. Weird. Not sure where the NCVS is getting the other 107,740...

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... a-table-15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, if the FBI is be believed, a gun owner is more than 3 times more likely to shoot and kill an innocent bystander than an attacker.

A justifiable homicide is defined as a policeman killing a felon. It does not include private citizens killing in self defense. The 270 number is around average for police killings nationwide per year. I guess the devil is in the details.

As for the 100k, I can see that number being much closer to the actual amount than 300. There are almost a million violent crimes reported each year involving hand guns alone.

[cornhole153]

Ok mr. cornhole -

Go ahead and give one documented incident where an off-duty L.E. officer was told he could not bring his concealed weapon into an LDS Church in Utah. Good luck. You won't find it.

Also, when police dept.'s require their off-duty officers to carry concealed weapons as a force multiplier - those are internal policies - you won't find those either. You're grasping at straws and trying to save face. I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

"Wont find those"? Huh? There are loads of police agency policy manuals on line, and I can't find a single one that requires off-duty carrying. For example, my local (Seattle) department specifically states that it's optional:

"Off-duty sworn personnel may choose whether or not to be armed."

http://www.seattle.gov/police/publicati ... earms.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Again, here's the Church's official policy... "The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law"

I don't know how any reasonable person could read these two policies and conclude, as you have, that all LE officers can carry into church?

[cornhole153]

FOUR accidentally shot (including a 2 year old and a 13 year old) in Baton Rouge last month alone.

http://theadvocate.com/news/police/5044 ... accidental" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Would be interesting to compare how often guns are used to kill attackers verses how often they are used in accidental deaths.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

Your wish is my command. Not hard to find. Heard stats like this last week from another source too.

A widely-known study conducted by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz in the 1990s found that there were somewhere between 830,000 and 2.45 million U.S. defensive gun uses annually. A National Crime Victimization Study (NCVS) which asked victims if they had used a gun in self-defense found that about 108,000 each year had done so. A big problem with the NCVS line of survey reasoning, however, is that it only includes those uses where a citizen kills a criminal, not when one is only wounded, is held by the intended victim until police arrive, or when brandishing a gun caused a criminal to flee.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2 ... rol-lobby/

Accidental gun deaths per year have been about 850 of which less than 200 are under 18 and that includes accidental police shootings, people mistaking family memebers for an intruder, hunting accident, and so on (this includes all guns not just hand guns).

A little eye opening aint it? 108k killed 803k-2.45million used to protect and in the vast majority of cases the gun is never fired. And there are some experts that think it might even be higher because of all the unreported uses to protect oneself. So do you think of those 2.45 million times, how many murders do you think were thwarted? How many rapes?

My recommendation to you is to go to a gun range and take a safety course and practice and see how it feels. If you don't feel any more responsible after the course and firing the gun then keep up the fight against guns. But I'm willing to bet that you will see what it feels like to posses such a deadly instrument and how vigilant you become while having it and then imagine how you would feel to point it at someone and how much you really really really don't want to ever have to fire it at another human being.

"108k killed'? Are you saying that 108K attackers were killed in a single year?

The NCVS said that not me. Take it up with them if you don't believe the numbers.

FBI says there are about 260 justifiable homicides a year. Weird. Not sure where the NCVS is getting the other 107,740...

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... a-table-15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, if the FBI is be believed, a gun owner is more than 3 times more likely to shoot and kill an innocent bystander than an attacker.

A justifiable homicide is defined as a policeman killing a felon. It does not include private citizens killing in self defense. The 270 number is around average for police killings nationwide per year. I guess the devil is in the details.

As for the 100k, I can see that number being much closer to the actual amount than 300. There are almost a million violent crimes reported each year involving hand guns alone.

That FBI table is titled "Justifiable Homicide by Weapon, Private Citizen"