CougarCorner

hawkwing wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:08 pm And get Bishops out of the Temple recommend business too?

I mean, I know couples that have lied about about keeping the law of chastity, word of wisdom, sustaining the prophet, because they were afraid of losing their recommends and not being able to get married in the temple.

For me, no. I see going to the Temple and participating in required ordinances of salvation differently than going to BYU. A BYU student spends thousands of dollars to obtain a degree. And while a BYU degree is quite valuable ,it certainly is not needed for salvation. Bishops do need to be guardians of our Temples. I just don’t see the same imperative for BYU.

Any yet every Mormon can work on going to the Temple, while BYU has just 30,000 slots, with way more than that applying and being turned away each year.

The HCO may be unnecessary, but the Honor Code itself and bishop approval are both wanted and needed for BYU to remain unique and worth tithing money.

As the husband of a woman who was raped while she was at BYU, I can tell you that there is a big issue at BYU. This rapist chose Provo because he knew how victims rarely come forward because of the shame that is prevalent on campus toward anything sexual and the knowledge that at the time women could possibly be kicked out so they wouldn't say anything. Needless to say, after she reported many girls she knew told her what had happened to them by the same man but they were still too scared to come forward. He made bail and skipped out only to be caught years later. Don't even get me started on how she was spiritually manipulated after to give a child up for adoption.

Needless to say, she didn't graduate from BYU and is still figuring out how to love herself nearly 30 years later.

The honor code office often lacks the most amazing thing that Christ gave us and that was his grace. Then again, I know many Mormons at church who only believe in conditional grace so I guess it makes sense. Please forgive me for using the term "Mormon", It is easier to type out than Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Plus I am a heathen who is ok with and actually prefers being called a Mormon.

uncoug wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:01 am As the husband of a woman who was raped while she was at BYU, I can tell you that there is a big issue at BYU. This rapist chose Provo because he knew how victims rarely come forward because of the shame that is prevalent on campus toward anything sexual and the knowledge that at the time women could possibly be kicked out so they wouldn't say anything. Needless to say, after she reported many girls she knew told her what had happened to them by the same man but they were still too scared to come forward. He made bail and skipped out only to be caught years later. Don't even get me started on how she was spiritually manipulated after to give a child up for adoption.

Needless to say, she didn't graduate from BYU and is still figuring out how to love herself nearly 30 years later.

The honor code office often lacks the most amazing thing that Christ gave us and that was his grace. Then again, I know many Mormons at church who only believe in conditional grace so I guess it makes sense. Please forgive me for using the term "Mormon", It is easier to type out than Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Plus I am a heathen who is ok with and actually prefers being called a Mormon.

Thank you for sharing this perspective. I can only imagine how hard that must be for her and for you as well. I also don't mind being called a Mormon. And regular Mormons, in general, live up to their reputation of being judgemental. Now add in an Honor Code restricting things not even needed to get into the temple and the culture of students reporting and tattling on each other, and you have even greater judging going on. One thing that most Mormons could learn from other Christians is about grace. Let the HONOR code be about HONOR and let my mistakes be between me, the Lord, and if needed, my bishop. No one else.

FWIW, I've always viewed the standards for a temple recommend as minimum standards, not as the be-all-end-all standards for righteous living. Shoot -- even the Savior set the bar higher. Quick-hit example:

Standard temple question: "Do you live the law of chastity?"
Savior Sermon on the Mount: "Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

The real bar we are all aiming for should be much higher than the entry-level requirements to enter in and server and learn at the temple.

So the argument that "the Honor Code asks more of people than temple attendance!!!" doesn't get any traction from me. I think it's a great thing to encourage people to elevate their standards of their own free will and choice, and that's what the Honor Code does. If you want the benefit of a tithing-subsidized education that is limited to ~30K enrollees at a time, I have no problem with selecting those who are willing to raise their standards even higher.

I may disagree with some of those higher standards individually (e.g. shaving. Full disclosure -- I had a beard card at BYU), but I will never disagree with higher standards generally, especially when they are something you opt-in to in order to receive a benefit.

Mars wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:52 pm Any yet every Mormon can work on going to the Temple, while BYU has just 30,000 slots, with way more than that applying and being turned away each year.

The HCO may be unnecessary, but the Honor Code itself and bishop approval are both wanted and needed for BYU to remain unique and worth tithing money.

yep. If a requirement at BYU was you had to walk on your hands between classes, they could probably find 30000 ppl willing to do it, it's very high demand. I'm ok with the bar being high. if you don't like it, and you're at BYU, there's another school that will take you.