Big 12

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nuk13
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Big 12

Post by nuk13 »

Is this the team that's going to the Big 12? If this kind of play keeps up we should ask the FCS to let us in. It's very sad to see this happening.


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Re: Big 12

Post by TulaneVandyRiceCoug »

To make it through study hall when I was in high school, my buddies and I would play a game called "would you rather" and boy have I learned a lot because of it. The question I pose to us fans would thus verily be:

Would you rather have stayed in the Mountain West and made several seasons of 1-3 losses against a cupcake schedule and pretended to be good on a national stage?

Would you rather stay independent and have our season determined by the beginning of October and suffer injury attrition early against a front loaded schedule which can result in unexpected later losses anyway?

Would you rather get into a P5 conference with a tougher schedule with likely 4-6 loss seasons or worse to come, and over time try to lift the tide of recruitment and funding, and hopefully have a realistic shot at the playoffs or a 2nd national championship one day, all while dealing with the growing pains that come with changes as we move out of independence?

The answer should always be the third. We are looking at an average to below expectation season, but this is just a step in the overall journey. Independence is almost over. The methods that got us here are indeed changing, and like it or not, we have people like Tuiaki to thank for getting the program this far.

One more for ya.

Would you rather downgrade the program entirely to the FCS level and therefore have 0-1 losses each season for the foreseeable future in order to feel like a "winner"? Now that's just silly talk. I get that losses don't feel good. Those Arkansas and Liberty games were both ugly losses which I too have allowed to influence my emotional well-being. However, even if you are the big fish in a small pond and demolish cupcakes week after week in a subpar conference or division, it will never feel as good as the wins on a national stage with national relevance.

BYU does have the ability to knock off some top ranked teams once in awhile, but just not consistently. I am a true blue believer that we will get there one day and I sincerely hope by 2030, Kalani will lead the team out on the field for a playoff game during a special season. Mark it down. Keep the vision of building the program Kalani. The man has some hard decisions but I think he has what it takes to bring success. This underperforming defense stuff is just a blip along the way.


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Re: Big 12

Post by byufan4ever »

I don't necessarily agree that "the answer should always be the third [option]." It depends on what fans' expectations are and what makes them happy. It depends on what a good "fit" for the school is. And it really depends on how serious the BYU athletic department is about spending money to succeed.

Everyone really enjoyed Zack Wilson's last season, right? All those wins and yards and TDs and stats. Well, guess, what? That was a typical Boise St. "cupcake plus one tough team" schedule. But everyone really enjoyed watching that season. If BYU is not going to pay for better coaches and constantly upgrading the facilities then we're going to be lucky to make it to 4-5 wins any given season. We are going to be Vanderbilt or Georgia Tech. Teams in good conferences, but with factors that limit them in recruiting (for them it's academics and for us the Honor Code). Those schools just don't spend on athletics and they just about always are going to be the bottom dwellers in their conference.

So don't speak for everyone. If the BYU administration is not going to put $$ to match my expectations of winning seasons then, yes, we should find another conference. My enthusiasm for watching BYU every single week every single year is going to greatly wane if we can only muster a winning season once every five years.


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Re: Big 12

Post by nuk13 »

Byufanforever, you put that very well.


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Re: Big 12

Post by ABYUFAN »

FWIW I think that "blaming the administration" for "not paying the appropriate amount for a good coach" isn't a criticism based on reality. It's just an easy excuse. If you look t the coaches that BYU has missed out on because of money - we're talking about an OC and an O-Line coach and that's all that's coming to mind.

And if you look back not too far - BYU put up some big bucks with the Big 12 invite to keep their current coaches in place and a s a reward for what they've done in the past - including our D coordinator who offered to quit on his team mid season.

So maybe we like to blame somebody when things are going rough. And It's always easiest for people to complain that someone else isn't spending enough of their money so that's not surprising - but honestly it's not really a productive exercise.

Our coaching staff is who we've always known them to be - Sitake is an amazing man - quite probably a better person than I am, but a mediocre coach. Roderick is just as wishy washy as we'd expect from someone who committed to come coach here and change his mind multiple times.

If I'm aware of a better candidate out there that would consider coming here but just not at this price, then the "spend the money" argument might have merit - but even though Bronco left to get more money - most people here feel that it was his time to go anyway and BYU had hit its ceiling under him.


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Re: Big 12

Post by byufan4ever »

LOL. You just reinforced to me why we really are a mid major program and not ready to compete with the big boys. Come on, it's common knowledge that BYU doesn't pay anywhere close to what other coaches are making. If we put up big bucks to keep this staff then again that says a lot about our administration. That's great that Sitake is a nice guy. Every single TV commentator mentions that too. But if that's our main qualifier for a head coach then we as fans, or at least I, need to greatly reduce our/my expectations.

We have an unwritten rule that the head coach has to be LDS temple worthy. We have a strict honor code. The coaching candidate pool is going to be extremely small with those limitations. So my point stands that with all of these restrictions we are just not going to be competitive in football and basketball in the toughest conferences.

So if money won't help us grab new coaches then I'm even more pessimistic now. How in earth are we going to be competitive year in and year out? You do realize that our glory days were in the WAC? Our national championship year (#3 Pitt and no other ranked teams) and Detmer's Heisman year (yes we beat #1 Miami, but overall this was not a P5 schedule) didn't exactly have the greatest SOS. And yet it was those years that really grew our passionate fanbase.

I feel like a lot of fans are going to look at a 3-9 record in the coming years and go, "Well, at least we're in the Big 12!" There's going to be all of these Big 12 bumper stickers in Utah and there'll be all this pride about it. And that's all that we're going to have. To me winning is fun and I'd rather be competitive in a mid-major conference than the doormat of a P5. We need to know who we are and where we belong.

I guess some fans just want to have those blue goggles on and they'll turn into BYU Sports nation every single day and believe all the hype. That's great. You do you. But I'm trying to be a fan and be realistic. With our limitations we are going to really struggle in the coming years. I hope that I'm wrong.


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Re: Big 12

Post by ABYUFAN »

byufan4ever wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:35 pm LOL. You just reinforced to me why we really are a mid major program and not ready to compete with the big boys. Come on, it's common knowledge that BYU doesn't pay anywhere close to what other coaches are making. If we put up big bucks to keep this staff then again that says a lot about our administration. That's great that Sitake is a nice guy. Every single TV commentator mentions that too. But if that's our main qualifier for a head coach then we as fans, or at least I, need to greatly reduce our/my expectations.

We have an unwritten rule that the head coach has to be LDS temple worthy. We have a strict honor code. The coaching candidate pool is going to be extremely small with those limitations. So my point stands that with all of these restrictions we are just not going to be competitive in football and basketball in the toughest conferences.

So if money won't help us grab new coaches then I'm even more pessimistic now. How in earth are we going to be competitive year in and year out? You do realize that our glory days were in the WAC? Our national championship year (#3 Pitt and no other ranked teams) and Detmer's Heisman year (yes we beat #1 Miami, but overall this was not a P5 schedule) didn't exactly have the greatest SOS. And yet it was those years that really grew our passionate fanbase.

I feel like a lot of fans are going to look at a 3-9 record in the coming years and go, "Well, at least we're in the Big 12!" There's going to be all of these Big 12 bumper stickers in Utah and there'll be all this pride about it. And that's all that we're going to have. To me winning is fun and I'd rather be competitive in a mid-major conference than the doormat of a P5. We need to know who we are and where we belong.

I guess some fans just want to have those blue goggles on and they'll turn into BYU Sports nation every single day and believe all the hype. That's great. You do you. But I'm trying to be a fan and be realistic. With our limitations we are going to really struggle in the coming years. I hope that I'm wrong.
I'm sorry - I have no idea what you're saying here - but maybe I just need to spend some more time "doing me."

If you want to be mad that BYU doesn't have P5 depth before it joins a P5 conference then go ahead. Get mad. That said, I am glad that you acknowledge that BYU has significant coaching restrictions and recruiting limitations - both of which go against the principal that BYU could just pay a coach more money and all of the program's problems go away.

And BTW you have a lot of "We" and "Our" language in your post - I am not part of the program; perhaps you are and you're part of the problem. In any event - I hope that you've at least got some skin in the game so when you're grumpy that more money needs to go to paying more coaches you're at least talking about your money and not someone else spending more of their money for you to derive a greater level of satisfaction from an otherwise free product.


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Re: Big 12

Post by byufan4ever »

ABYUFAN wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 3:53 pm
byufan4ever wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:35 pm LOL. You just reinforced to me why we really are a mid major program and not ready to compete with the big boys. Come on, it's common knowledge that BYU doesn't pay anywhere close to what other coaches are making. If we put up big bucks to keep this staff then again that says a lot about our administration. That's great that Sitake is a nice guy. Every single TV commentator mentions that too. But if that's our main qualifier for a head coach then we as fans, or at least I, need to greatly reduce our/my expectations.

We have an unwritten rule that the head coach has to be LDS temple worthy. We have a strict honor code. The coaching candidate pool is going to be extremely small with those limitations. So my point stands that with all of these restrictions we are just not going to be competitive in football and basketball in the toughest conferences.

So if money won't help us grab new coaches then I'm even more pessimistic now. How in earth are we going to be competitive year in and year out? You do realize that our glory days were in the WAC? Our national championship year (#3 Pitt and no other ranked teams) and Detmer's Heisman year (yes we beat #1 Miami, but overall this was not a P5 schedule) didn't exactly have the greatest SOS. And yet it was those years that really grew our passionate fanbase.

I feel like a lot of fans are going to look at a 3-9 record in the coming years and go, "Well, at least we're in the Big 12!" There's going to be all of these Big 12 bumper stickers in Utah and there'll be all this pride about it. And that's all that we're going to have. To me winning is fun and I'd rather be competitive in a mid-major conference than the doormat of a P5. We need to know who we are and where we belong.

I guess some fans just want to have those blue goggles on and they'll turn into BYU Sports nation every single day and believe all the hype. That's great. You do you. But I'm trying to be a fan and be realistic. With our limitations we are going to really struggle in the coming years. I hope that I'm wrong.
I'm sorry - I have no idea what you're saying here - but maybe I just need to spend some more time "doing me."

If you want to be mad that BYU doesn't have P5 depth before it joins a P5 conference then go ahead. Get mad. That said, I am glad that you acknowledge that BYU has significant coaching restrictions and recruiting limitations - both of which go against the principal that BYU could just pay a coach more money and all of the program's problems go away.

And BTW you have a lot of "We" and "Our" language in your post - I am not part of the program; perhaps you are and you're part of the problem. In any event - I hope that you've at least got some skin in the game so when you're grumpy that more money needs to go to paying more coaches you're at least talking about your money and not someone else spending more of their money for you to derive a greater level of satisfaction from an otherwise free product.
Ok, I'll try to make this real simple. BYU needs better coaches and players to compete in the Big 12. Due to BYU's coaching restrictions that's not likely to happen so BYU is probably gonna suck in the near future. Just like being in the B12 won't magically get BYU better coaches it won't also magically get BYU a drastically better recruiting class. BYU will still have the same honor code restrictions for the players.

My point is that maybe being in a P5 conference is not a good fit for BYU football (and probably not for basketball either).

Are you really that petty to talk about my use of "we" and "our?" Dang bro. Let me spell it out. We/Our = BYU. Yep, most fans feel connected to their teams. If you don't then that's fine.


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Re: Big 12

Post by ABYUFAN »

byufan4ever wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 6:08 pm
Ok, I'll try to make this real simple. BYU needs better coaches and players to compete in the Big 12. Due to BYU's coaching restrictions that's not likely to happen so BYU is probably gonna suck in the near future. Just like being in the B12 won't magically get BYU better coaches it won't also magically get BYU a drastically better recruiting class. BYU will still have the same honor code restrictions for the players.

I'm not sold on the idea that upgrading to a P5 school requires better coaches - but I do agree that it requires better players. Utah and TCU both greatly improved after struggling upon their p5 upgrade with largely their same coaching staff. The fact is, many players will now consider BYU as an option when they wouldn't have before due solely to the P-5 status.

And FWIW I'm also one of those people who feel that if BYU wants to avoid being a P-5 school out of fear of competition then it should scrap the athletics program altogether. And to be clear - it should definitely NOT scrap is athletics program - it is already in the upper 1/3 of athletics programs in the nation and it isn't even in a P-5 conference yet. I'm just saying - like I said in my original response. "more money for the coaches" isn't really a serious solution.


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Re: Big 12

Post by jadesroom »

byufan4ever wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 6:08 pm
Ok, I'll try to make this real simple. BYU needs better coaches and players to compete in the Big 12. Due to BYU's coaching restrictions that's not likely to happen so BYU is probably gonna suck in the near future. Just like being in the B12 won't magically get BYU better coaches it won't also magically get BYU a drastically better recruiting class. BYU will still have the same honor code restrictions for the players.
You may remember that KS was given another contract extension last December.

If memory serves me correctly, at the time it was also announced that the assistants would be getting a pay raise more in line with other P-5 schools.

You may also recall that in May the coaching staff was expanded.

I believe that similar changes are happening in the men's basketball program and perhaps in other programs as well, though BYU is usually pretty hush hush about these things.

Big 12 affiliation is starting to have a positive impact. That said, I'm sure we would agree not all members of the current football staff are worth keeping on staff.


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