Why the Free Pass / Teflon Touch for Riley?

Couldn't be more off mgdhunter.



Heaps could not move the ball. He couldn't even do it against ISU and he couldn't do it against USU.



Riley moves the ball. And say what you want about his performance against TCU last week, he still moved the ball.



SpiffCoug can correct me, but if I recall correctly TCU was the only game this season were Riley had a PER below 136. Heaps never got close to average. Should Riley put together 4 games of sub-par play then I'm sure you'll see more calling for his head.

Opinions are just that "Opinions" and we can debate all day. I will say this, that this is a team problem, not an individual problem. Football is a team sport, and this team needs to get better across the board.

mgdhunter wrote:
Selective vision is what we all have. I am not trying to be the Jake vs. Riley, just pointing out there were some very poor decisions on Rileys part, and no one calling for his head like they were Jakes. I watch the same game everyone else watches, and I see problems that affected both Quarterbacks (OL not doing a good job). I believe our record would be very similar no matter who started the year as the QB.

Nelson = one poor showing against a quality opponent

Heaps = 5 poor showings against 4 poor opponents and one quality opponent



Can you see why people were calling for Heaps' head and why they might be willing to give Nelson some slack?

There is no question that Jake Heaps as he is currently playing would have lost us the USU game, the SJSU game, the OSU game, and the TCU game. That is as close to fact as you can have it. He didn't look great against ISU but we still wouldn't have lost that game. That would put us at 3-6 with questions on if we could even win out to get to a bowl game. That would be utterly disastrous and Jake Heaps confidence would be ruined beyond being salvageable.



We all want Heaps to succeed here. I personally believe it will happen and it will go down as one of the greatest comeback stories of all time at BYU. But it wouldn't have happened without the coaches finally having the cojones to pull him.

hawkwing wrote:
There is no question that Jake Heaps as he is currently playing would have lost us the USU game, the SJSU game, the OSU game, and the TCU game. That is as close to fact as you can have it. He didn't look great against ISU but we still wouldn't have lost that game. That would put us at 3-6 with questions on if we could even win out to get to a bowl game. That would be utterly disastrous and Jake Heaps confidence would be ruined beyond being salvageable.



We all want Heaps to succeed here. I personally believe it will happen and it will go down as one of the greatest comeback stories of all time at BYU. But it wouldn't have happened without the coaches finally having the cojones to pull him.

Good post...but I am not convinced that BYU would have lost to SJSU or OSU under Heaps. I think if both quarterbacks played all 9 games, the records would be as follows:



Nelson: 6-3

Heaps: 5-4



I will say that Heaps would be harder to watch...but OSU and SJSU are bad enough that something could have been worked out.

pjmuli wrote:

There is no question that Jake Heaps as he is currently playing would have lost us the USU game, the SJSU game, the OSU game, and the TCU game. That is as close to fact as you can have it. He didn't look great against ISU but we still wouldn't have lost that game. That would put us at 3-6 with questions on if we could even win out to get to a bowl game. That would be utterly disastrous and Jake Heaps confidence would be ruined beyond being salvageable.



We all want Heaps to succeed here. I personally believe it will happen and it will go down as one of the greatest comeback stories of all time at BYU. But it wouldn't have happened without the coaches finally having the cojones to pull him.

Good post...but I am not convinced that BYU would have lost to SJSU or OSU under Heaps. I think if both quarterbacks played all 9 games, the records would be as follows:



Nelson: 6-3

Heaps: 5-4



I will say that Heaps would be harder to watch...but OSU and SJSU are bad enough that something could have been worked out.

I'm not sure you can convince me that Utah State is significantly better than Oregon State or San Jose State. But I'm willing to listen to your argument.

Gunk wrote:
Couldn't be more off mgdhunter.



Heaps could not move the ball. He couldn't even do it against ISU and he couldn't do it against USU.



Riley moves the ball. And say what you want about his performance against TCU last week, he still moved the ball.



SpiffCoug can correct me, but if I recall correctly TCU was the only game this season were Riley had a PER below 136. Heaps never got close to average. Should Riley put together 4 games of sub-par play then I'm sure you'll see more calling for his head.

Correct. He was above 200 in two other games and at 159 in the other two games. That is killing it. And I mean absolutely KILLING it.



Since 1987 (25 seasons of data here) BYU's record in games with a PER at 159 or above: 97-7 (.924).



I think Riley is allowed at least one poor game after his previous four. Now, as I stated, elsewhere in this thread or in another thread, if Riley doesn't bounce back against Idaho we start to be concerned. If he is still struggling against New Mexico St, then a change might have to be really considered sometime in the Hawaii game.

snoscythe wrote:

Selective vision is what we all have. I am not trying to be the Jake vs. Riley, just pointing out there were some very poor decisions on Rileys part, and no one calling for his head like they were Jakes. I watch the same game everyone else watches, and I see problems that affected both Quarterbacks (OL not doing a good job). I believe our record would be very similar no matter who started the year as the QB.

Nelson = one poor showing against a quality opponent

Heaps = 5 poor showings against 4 poor opponents and one quality opponent



Can you see why people were calling for Heaps' head and why they might be willing to give Nelson some slack?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Heaps has played better than Nelson from what we have seen during this season. To me, that is a dead issue.



The two living issues...



Whether it is better to use the season to try and help Heaps get things straightened out for upcoming years.



Nelson's uncanny ability to do really stupid things.



I think Nelson's stupid decisions are better (at this point) than Heaps consistently poor play...but Nelson has made four or five decisions that either were costly or should have been.



That TCU team is not even close to the TCU teams we have seen the past five years. Completely beatable.



That game was winnable if not for Riley's poor decisions. Yes, other blunders put us under...but we should view Nelson's decisions in an accountability that is geared toward its impact on the game. Nelson's mistakes REALLY hurt this football team.

mgdhunter wrote:
You said it "his mistakes" and he owns them. I do believe there is a double standard, and hope the coaching staff and team can fix it. I don't dislike Riley, and I don't dislike Jake, but I do believe one is held to a different standard. Equality is not very strong with the prevailing culture.

BS - sounds like the sort of nonsense Ute Trolls are posting to rile up EMO BYU fans against their own team. It was just explained to you. If you make mistakes making plays but you have more TD passes than Ints you get different treatment than the guy who had more Int than TD passes.



It is a risk vs reward analysis. Pretty easy to do. PER.



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mgdhunter wrote:
Equality is not very strong with the prevailing culture.

Please tell me what exactly you are saying here...

This is the difference to me.



Riley does as much bad as good. Heaps did just as much bad but did so without any good to counter balance the bad.



Riley has a net effect of zero, to positive. Heaps had a net negative effect on the team. Riley is the better option than Heaps right now.

mgdhunter wrote:
And as for Heaps against ISU. He was doing what they told him to do, no more, no less. He didn't have a chance to anything great. He was just there to take time off of the clock. And the INT was a great play by the defense. Again, the debate will rage on.

The interception happened because he stared down his primary reciever and threw to him even though he was covered......Just like he had been doing all year. The reason he scored on 1 out of 4 of his drives against ISU was because he was not going through his reciever progressions and was throwing to his primary reciever on every throw.....just like he had been doing all year.



I am really rooting for Heaps, I want him to play up to his potential because I think he can take us to good places. Having said that, right now he is not running the offense the way it is supposed to be run. No matter how much you guys don't like Riley N. He is running the offense the way it is designed and that is why he is being successful. "Weak arm" and all.

pjmuli wrote:

There is no question that Jake Heaps as he is currently playing would have lost us the USU game, the SJSU game, the OSU game, and the TCU game. That is as close to fact as you can have it. He didn't look great against ISU but we still wouldn't have lost that game. That would put us at 3-6 with questions on if we could even win out to get to a bowl game. That would be utterly disastrous and Jake Heaps confidence would be ruined beyond being salvageable.



We all want Heaps to succeed here. I personally believe it will happen and it will go down as one of the greatest comeback stories of all time at BYU. But it wouldn't have happened without the coaches finally having the cojones to pull him.

Good post...but I am not convinced that BYU would have lost to SJSU or OSU under Heaps. I think if both quarterbacks played all 9 games, the records would be as follows:



Nelson: 6-3

Heaps: 5-4



I will say that Heaps would be harder to watch...but OSU and SJSU are bad enough that something could have been worked out.

Had USU played SJSU yet? Do you really expect the USU team that was kicking Jake Heaps butt to prove that they are vastly superior to SJSU?



They are about the same when you go 4 qtrs.



It is a miracle Jake bear Ole Miss and UCF. He didn't beat them.



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fifthqb wrote:
This is the difference to me.



Riley does as much bad as good. Heaps did just as much bad but did so without any good to counter balance the bad.



Riley has a net effect of zero, to positive. Heaps had a net negative effect on the team. Riley is the better option than Heaps right now.

Riley's effect is much greater than zero right now.

hawkwing wrote:

hawkwing wrote:
There is no question that Jake Heaps as he is currently playing would have lost us the USU game, the SJSU game, the OSU game, and the TCU game. That is as close to fact as you can have it. He didn't look great against ISU but we still wouldn't have lost that game. That would put us at 3-6 with questions on if we could even win out to get to a bowl game. That would be utterly disastrous and Jake Heaps confidence would be ruined beyond being salvageable.



We all want Heaps to succeed here. I personally believe it will happen and it will go down as one of the greatest comeback stories of all time at BYU. But it wouldn't have happened without the coaches finally having the cojones to pull him.

Good post...but I am not convinced that BYU would have lost to SJSU or OSU under Heaps. I think if both quarterbacks played all 9 games, the records would be as follows:



Nelson: 6-3

Heaps: 5-4



I will say that Heaps would be harder to watch...but OSU and SJSU are bad enough that something could have been worked out.

I'm not sure you can convince me that Utah State is significantly better than Oregon State or San Jose State. But I'm willing to listen to your argument.

Not sure that I have an argument really...so much of this depends on how our perspectives are formed by the dots we choose to connect. I think an argument can easily be made that Utah State is better than OSU and SJSU. I like USUs chances against Sacramento State.



If Utah can comfortably beat OSU with Hays under center, they are in big, big trouble.

SpiffCoug wrote:
Jake got a free pass for the first few games as well. There has been plenty of criticism of Riley after the TCU game. He certainly hasn't gotten a free pass. No one has said he played well. No one has said he didn't make mistakes. Your impression of a double standard is simply incorrect.



Riley was poor. He made plays that helped us get back in a game and he made plays that prevented us from coming all the way back. He wasn't the sole reason for the loss. But he needs to play better. Even if the other mistakes had been made (punting issues) if Riley had played better (two red zoner turnovers) and if he had eliminated his own errors, BYU could likely have won.



He needs to pick up his game. A 111 PER isn't acceptable and well below the 136 standard.



There is no double standard. The standard is a 136 PER. I think one game below it isn't a cause for concern. Five straight and 15 out of 19 below the standard is.



Now if Riley comes out against Idaho and is well below 136, then we need to start thinking about maybe being concerned. If he goes two games (Idaho & New Mexico St) well below the standard, then we need to be concerned and be ready to make a possible change against Hawaii if he again fails to reach the standard.



There is no double standard.

+1



Perfectly stated.

SpiffCoug wrote:

Riley's effect is much greater than zero right now.

In the last game his net effect was close to zero. Three turnovers on his part kept us from scoring, or aided their scoring drives. In the games previous to TCU he had a net positive effect, but against TCU he did as much bad as good.

SpiffCoug wrote:

Couldn't be more off mgdhunter.



Heaps could not move the ball. He couldn't even do it against ISU and he couldn't do it against USU.



Riley moves the ball. And say what you want about his performance against TCU last week, he still moved the ball.



SpiffCoug can correct me, but if I recall correctly TCU was the only game this season were Riley had a PER below 136. Heaps never got close to average. Should Riley put together 4 games of sub-par play then I'm sure you'll see more calling for his head.

Correct. He was above 200 in two other games and at 159 in the other two games. That is killing it. And I mean absolutely KILLING it.



Since 1987 (25 seasons of data here) BYU's record in games with a PER at 159 or above: 97-7 (.924).



I think Riley is allowed at least one poor game after his previous four. Now, as I stated, elsewhere in this thread or in another thread, if Riley doesn't bounce back against Idaho we start to be concerned. If he is still struggling against New Mexico St, then a change might have to be really considered sometime in the Hawaii game.

I don't like to bad mouth opponents, but if Riley plays poorly VS Idaho, it is time to go try something different. I say that fully expecting that Riley will be kicking spuds butts all over the field. He will not play poorly. I guarantee it unless he gets injured. He will play at or above 136 and 136 is very respectable.



I am going to predict he goes north of 150. I guarantee 136. Expect to see North of 160. Would not be surprised at all to see 170.



NMSU is a different story. They are in the SJSU, USU, OSU, vicinity. Just slightly below or equal to those teams. I expect to see a 136, but won't guarantee it without waiting to see what the next two weeks brings.



UH at home beat NMSU, but the local fans respect what they saw. Yes UH just squeaked past Idaho on the road, but the local fans say UH and Idaho both stunk it up.



We play at UH and I saw Detmer as a Heisman winner and Doman with a 12-0 team that just lost Staley get creamed by mediocre UH teams at Aloha Stadium. Not gonna make any prediction for that one until game week.



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Cougarbib2 wrote:

It is a miracle Jake bear Ole Miss and UCF. He didn't beat them.



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Especially true of Ole Miss---Heaps had a many chances to take the lead and never succeeded---in the end the defense had to score the winning touchdown.

SpiffCoug wrote:

Couldn't be more off mgdhunter.



Heaps could not move the ball. He couldn't even do it against ISU and he couldn't do it against USU.



Riley moves the ball. And say what you want about his performance against TCU last week, he still moved the ball.



SpiffCoug can correct me, but if I recall correctly TCU was the only game this season were Riley had a PER below 136. Heaps never got close to average. Should Riley put together 4 games of sub-par play then I'm sure you'll see more calling for his head.

Correct. He was above 200 in two other games and at 159 in the other two games. That is killing it. And I mean absolutely KILLING it.



Since 1987 (25 seasons of data here) BYU's record in games with a PER at 159 or above: 97-7 (.924).



I think Riley is allowed at least one poor game after his previous four. Now, as I stated, elsewhere in this thread or in another thread, if Riley doesn't bounce back against Idaho we start to be concerned. If he is still struggling against New Mexico St, then a change might have to be really considered sometime in the Hawaii game.

Do you have the average PER against for teams played and the PERs for Heaps and Nelson?



I think the real question is are we going to have to put up with Riley Nelson's stupid play or Jake Heap's inept play for another 2-3 years? I would much prefer to be talking about how great the QB at BYU is regardless of his name.