Riley Vs Jake Next Year

At the beginning of the season, I was bagging on Jake - and rightfully so. I'm glad we made the switch to Riley. I also think it might have done some good to Jake's ego and humility. With that said, I'm pretty confident Jake will be the starter next year and that HE SHOULD BE.



All you have to do is answer this questions honestly:



What is Riley's ceiling?



What is Jake's ceiling?



I think we've seen Riley's ceiling. This is pretty much all we're going to get from him. A whole lot of heart, guts, grit, and pretty good athleticism coupled with not-so-great decision making, average arm strength, and below average accuracy.



All we've seen from Jake is his worst. We saw glimpses of where he could go at the end of last season. A few of his throws last week and this week are unbelievable. With hard work, dedication, humility, and hours in a film room he could be whatever he wants to be and his ceiling is limitless. I say coach him up and roll with him.



Thoughts?

It's impossible to know what the ceiling is for either guy. People think that we've seen RN's ceiling for no other reason than that he is not a proto-typical BYU QB. But he has only had at max 3 or 4 weeks of starters reps in his entire career. To think that he couldn't improve with a spring and fall camp of starters reps doesn't make sense.



Jake's ceiling is also impossible to determine right now, we of course all hope that his ceiling is to look like he did in the 2nd half against teams that actually field a defense, but so far that's never happened. No doubt that a red shirt would help the coaching staff and Jake determine exactly where that ceiling is and what to do to get there.

cougman wrote:
At the beginning of the season, I was bagging on Jake - and rightfully so. I'm glad we made the switch to Riley. I also think it might have done some good to Jake's ego and humility. With that said, I'm pretty confident Jake will be the starter next year and that HE SHOULD BE.



All you have to do is answer this questions honestly:



What is Riley's ceiling?



What is Jake's ceiling?



I think we've seen Riley's ceiling. This is pretty much all we're going to get from him. A whole lot of heart, guts, grit, and pretty good athleticism coupled with not-so-great decision making, average arm strength, and below average accuracy.



All we've seen from Jake is his worst. We saw glimpses of where he could go at the end of last season. A few of his throws last week and this week are unbelievable. With hard work, dedication, humility, and hours in a film room he could be whatever he wants to be and his ceiling is limitless. I say coach him up and roll with him.



Thoughts?

I say redshirt him and have him ready to dominate in 2013 and 14. Riley is hands down the better QB right now, even with the way Jake has played the last 2 games.

I would like to see Jake start, but get Riley's leadership, heart, etc on the field as a receiver.



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stuckinbig10country wrote:
I would like to see Jake start, but get Riley's leadership, heart, etc on the field as a receiver.



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Jake should be the guy next year, but I would like to see Riley on the field as well playing defense as a safety. Had he started his college career playing that position he could perhaps be an NFL talent like Eric Weddle.



Riley has improved, he knows when to stay in the pocket and doesn't just tuck it and run, which ironically is why he is now injured. But, i think we have seen his ceiling because of his lack of arm strength. He has completed some big passes, but mainly because our receivers go up and get the ball, not because he is beating anyone with his arm.



We all read the last Gordo Monson article, and i liked only one of the points he made. Jake should be the guy, but there is nothing wrong with bringing in the unorthodox lefty from time to time to through defenses off (had we done that in the 4th quarter against Texas we would have won for sure). Florida won a championship playing two QB's with Chris Leak and a freshmen Tim Tebow.



The sad thing is that i don't trust the coaching staff get the maximum value out of the position next year.

Talking about next year feels premature. We're probably going to see one more start from each of them. After 11 games, both still feel like unknown commodities - both can beat bad teams. Heaps got two shots at good teams and looked inept, but that was early on and he seems to have improved. Riley got one shot at a good team and looked serviceable but made some stupid mental mistakes.



If Heaps plays poorly against Hawaii, I think you go with Riley. Hawaii is poor against the pass. Likewise, if Riley plays well in our bowl game, I think he also gets the nod - SMU is an average pass defense team, but Houston, USM and Tulsa are all solid. If Heaps plays well against Hawaii and Riley plays poorly against our bowl opponent, then we enter the QB controversy zone.

crh55 wrote:

The sad thing is that i don't trust the coaching staff get the maximum value out of the position next year.

I'm tired of this sentiment because it holds true of a grand total of ONE QB. Beck, Hall and Nelson all have gotten better under Doman. Heaps is the only QB whose failed to flourish the way we hoped.



There's definitely a case to be made that Heaps' failings are attributable to coaching mistakes, but I think that case would have to be Heaps-specific. Doman and Co. may not know how to cultivate Heaps, but they do know how to cultivate QBs in general.



And that's all I have left to say on the matter. I'll sit back and watch this thread get 90 replies just like the last several Jake vs. Riley threads did. ;)

Below average accuracy that somehow yields above average passer efficiency rating week after week :roll:



He's hit his ceiling, because he's the kind of player who doesn't work hard and can't possibly get any better :roll:

Schmoe wrote:
Below average accuracy that somehow yields above average passer efficiency rating week after week :roll:



He's hit his ceiling, because he's the kind of player who doesn't work hard and can't possibly get any better :roll:

Because PER is the definitive way to measure QB's :roll:



So I guess if Riley keeps working hard, he can become a mobile Peyton Manning :roll:



I'm very sorry to break this to everyone, but talent matters and at some point, the talent well runs dry.



Sure he can get better. But can he get to the level that will allow BYU to actually beat a team with a winning record, let alone a ranked opponent? I don't think so. Understanding that he hasn't yet, I think Heaps possesses everything to be able to do that. I could be wrong, but I'm probably not.

hawkwing wrote:
It's impossible to know what the ceiling is for either guy. People think that we've seen RN's ceiling for no other reason than that he is not a proto-typical BYU QB. But he has only had at max 3 or 4 weeks of starters reps in his entire career. To think that he couldn't improve with a spring and fall camp of starters reps doesn't make sense.



Jake's ceiling is also impossible to determine right now, we of course all hope that his ceiling is to look like he did in the 2nd half against teams that actually field a defense, but so far that's never happened. No doubt that a red shirt would help the coaching staff and Jake determine exactly where that ceiling is and what to do to get there.

No it's not. People get paid a lot of money deciding what players' ceilings are. If you think the ceiling for Riley and Jake is the same, that's your opinion. And you're wrong :)



I'm not saying this because Riley isn't a proto BYU QB. Doman is 2nd on my all time BYU QB list. He was hardly prototypical. Not unlike Tim Tebow, Riley doesn't pass the QB eye test. Yeah, that's subjective, and I do think he can improve. I just don't see him improving enough to beat teams that matter. Hopefully I'm wrong.



Maybe everyone else here is cool losing to Utah every year as long as we win 9 or 10 games against a bunch of garbage teams, but I'm not. I have no doubt Riley can do that.

So, if he can get better, then he hasn't reached his ceiling. PER is not the definitive way to measure a QB, but an inaccurate QB cannot and will not get a good PER rating consistently. Are you going to come on here and eat boatloads of crow when Riley wins us our bowl game, or are you going to make more excuses?

cougman wrote:

Because PER is the definitive way to measure QB's :roll:

That's the thing, though. If you're judging QBs from a PER standpoint, a dual-threat QB like Nelson is the one who should be complaining, not a pure thrower like Heaps.



Nelson's PER does not include the additional 60-80 yards of extra offense he contributes with his feet. For Heaps, on the other hand - PER actually is a pretty complete metric of how he fares on the field.



As a sidenote, this dogma that BYU can't beat a team with a winning record is really strange. It's not like a team magically becomes better when they're above the .500 mark. BYU played a horrifically bipolar schedule this year. In hindsight, Texas is probably the only mid-tier team we played. I'd argue that TCU is currently borderline elite, and while Utah is exploitable by good QBs, they're a solid defensive team that did a good job of minimizing their weaknesses.

cougman wrote:

It's impossible to know what the ceiling is for either guy. People think that we've seen RN's ceiling for no other reason than that he is not a proto-typical BYU QB. But he has only had at max 3 or 4 weeks of starters reps in his entire career. To think that he couldn't improve with a spring and fall camp of starters reps doesn't make sense.



Jake's ceiling is also impossible to determine right now, we of course all hope that his ceiling is to look like he did in the 2nd half against teams that actually field a defense, but so far that's never happened. No doubt that a red shirt would help the coaching staff and Jake determine exactly where that ceiling is and what to do to get there.

No it's not. People get paid a lot of money deciding what players' ceilings are. If you think the ceiling for Riley and Jake is the same, that's your opinion. And you're wrong :)



I'm not saying this because Riley isn't a proto BYU QB. Doman is 2nd on my all time BYU QB list. He was hardly prototypical. Not unlike Tim Tebow, Riley doesn't pass the QB eye test. Yeah, that's subjective, and I do think he can improve. I just don't see him improving enough to beat teams that matter. Hopefully I'm wrong.



Maybe everyone else here is cool losing to Utah every year as long as we win 9 or 10 games against a bunch of garbage teams, but I'm not. I have no doubt Riley can do that.

The last sentence reflects the true assinity of this thread after Jake Heaps has lost to Utah two straight years making 0 for 2 and was on his way to 0-2 vs USU when Riley was brought in to save the game, season, and program. Yes - I cannot stomach losing one more game that we are supposed to win and Jake has already lost too many of them. I don't want to see Jake starting until he gives us our best chance to win that game. Losing games now to try to position for winning future games is a losing proposition by it's very nature and breeds an attitude that winning is not everything. Until Riely recovers - Jake is our best chance of winning. WHen Riley recovers - Jake is not - yet.



Geez we put up 42 points on a defense where everyone they have played lately has done that or more and good teams have hit the 60's and the Jake Heaps apologists are shining up that Heisman trophy again. Fresno State just put up 42 or so in a loss to NMSU. As NMSU head coach said after the game - "we are an offensive team right now and really do not have a defense - or words to that effect. If Jake had not stunk up much of the first half - we should have popped 56-63 on them.



We totally agree - do not play the guy that loses to Utah every year.

cougman wrote:

It's impossible to know what the ceiling is for either guy.

No it's not. People get paid a lot of money deciding what players' ceilings are.

Signed, the talent scouts who touted JaMarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Vince Young, J.P Losman and David Carr, any of the many talent scouts that recommended QBs over Tom Brady, the guys who told the Arizona Cardinals that Kevin Kolb was a franchise QB, etc. ;)



If you could determine the best QB of the bunch based on combine drills, 7-on-7 seven games, the "eye test," tightness of spirals, etc., then recruiting would be a much easier game than it is.

cougman wrote:
Not unlike Tim Tebow, Riley doesn't pass the QB eye test.

I'd see your point if we were talking NFL, but Tebow kinda undermines your point - he didn't need flawless mechanics or a pretty game to win the Heisman and 2 NCs.

cougman wrote:
Maybe everyone else here is cool losing to Utah every year as long as we win 9 or 10 games against a bunch of garbage teams, but I'm not. I have no doubt Riley can do that.

I'm not one to question Heaps' potential, but if we're going to make that argument, what has HEAPS done that leads us to believe he can beat anything other than garbage teams? Using last year's final standings and this year's current standings, Heaps is 1-5 against teams that finish at .500 or better, not counting games were he split the reps with Nelson (Wash, AFA and USU). That one win was called "Replaygate" by the rest of the MWC and had close to a 75%/25% split on run/pass play-calling.

cougman wrote:



All you have to do is answer this questions honestly:



What is Riley's ceiling?



What is Jake's ceiling?



I think we've seen Riley's ceiling. This is pretty much all we're going to get from him.

Thoughts?

All you have to do is answer this question honestly:



What is Tim Tebow's ceiling?



I think we've seen Tebow's ceiling. This is pretty much all we're going to get from him.



Thoughts? Beyond ridiculous. Both Tim Tebow & Riley Nelson come alive in a game. They win. All the armchair / coffee table quarterbacking is useless. These guys have heart - you cannot teach what they have - the will to win. They find a way to get it done - and they do.



Your post has - well - hit it's ceiling.

Your post has - well - hit it's ceiling.[/quote]



That's a good way to put it. When some of you say we've seen Nelson's ceiling, Who do you mean by "we"? Don't count me in on that. It's possible that we have, maybe the injury will limit him, but I'm not going to make a judgement on it untill I see it on the field.

nuk13 wrote:
Your post has - well - hit it's ceiling.

That's a good way to put it. When some of you say we've seen Nelson's ceiling, Who do you mean by "we"? Don't count me in on that. It's possible that we have, maybe the injury will limit him, but I'm not going to make a judgement on it untill I see it on the field.[/quote]



Plus 1

QB play is not just strength of arm but also decision making and audibles and other things. Those items can't easily be seen. I think Riley can improve in those areas with more experience.

Other postions on the team the ceilings would include strenth and speed in their ceiling. Easier to see when the ceiling is hit.



Riley could have won the TCU game with better decisions and few mistakes by teammates. He could have won the Texas game if he got a chance. His throws don't look the best but his legs in effect give us another player on offense and it does open up the passing lanes.



I'd play the one who is getting it done now.

cougman wrote:



Maybe everyone else here is cool losing to Utah every year as long as we win 9 or 10 games against a bunch of garbage teams, but I'm not. I have no doubt Riley can do that.

Heaps has had two shots at Utah. Neither went all too well. Riley hasn't had a single chance to beat Utah. I say, we give Riley a chance.

Gunk wrote:

Maybe everyone else here is cool losing to Utah every year as long as we win 9 or 10 games against a bunch of garbage teams, but I'm not. I have no doubt Riley can do that.

Heaps has had two shots at Utah. Neither went all too well. Riley hasn't had a single chance to beat Utah. I say, we give Riley a chance.

Heaps did nothing wrong in his Freshman Utah game. He made some great plays. Were it not for Payne kicking the ball into the ground, we win. Come to think of it, were it not for a lot of stupid things, we win.