Rose gets cut a lot more slack than Bronco

At least for slow starts and only beating teams he is supposed to beat.



Must be because he has been beating the mighty Utes consistently and Bronco has lost two in a row.



Speaking of slow starts. BYU should have beaten USU. Rose lost one he was supposed to win and looked bad doing it.



It is hard to fault BYU for losing to Wisconsin in that tourney in their back yard, or Baylor in Provo or even St. Mary's on the road. That could happen to a top 25 team.



The USU loss is where this team underachieved.



With a win there, this young team would be ranked.



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One of the problems with slow starts in football vs. Basketball is, you lose 1 or 2 early games in football, and your record is seriously tarnished for ranking and BCS chances. Lose 3 or 4 and you can forget about it. But a basketball team could lose 6 early games and still end up with a 20+ win season and a chance at the national championship.



So I guess the question is, would Bronco do as well as Rose if he had 30 games to play instead of 13?

My point is, Rose deserves the slack he gets because he turns slow starts into amazing seasons, but it is hard to tell whether Bronco deserves more slack because there is no chance to earn it.

Sammich wrote:
One of the problems with slow starts in football vs. Basketball is, you lose 1 or 2 early games in football, and your record is seriously tarnished for ranking and BCS chances. Lose 3 or 4 and you can forget about it. But a basketball team could lose 6 early games and still end up with a 20+ win season and a chance at the national championship.



So I guess the question is, would Bronco do as well as Rose if he had 30 games to play instead of 13?

This is the key. The sports are different. The NCAA tourney makes all the difference in the world.



It is difficult to say what could have happen at USU is we had a different rotation. USU has been terrible since Jardine went down.

And we now have Carlino at point.

Sammich wrote:
My point is, Rose deserves the slack he gets because he turns slow starts into amazing seasons, but it is hard to tell whether Bronco deserves more slack because there is no chance to earn it.

I don't agree. Coach Rose has produced one amazing season (last year), one very good season (2009-2010), and a bunch of good seasons (every other year under his tenure).



I agree Rose gets a lot more slack than Bronco - if you take last year out of the equation, you have two coaches that typically dominate against weaker competition but flounder against nationally prominent teams (unless said team is also in the MWC, in Rose's case). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Louisville was the only ranked team outside of the MWC that Rose has ever beat.



I think Rose gets off easier for a few different reasons.



First, I've heard a lot of BYU fans speculate that if Bronco ever got us to a BCS game, we'd probably hear a lot of the criticisms go away for 3-4 years. I think last year, for a lot of BYU fans, was roughly equivalent to a BCS year.



Second, I think BYU fans base their expectations on what programs surround them. Every conversation about Bronco inevitably leads to him getting compared to Petersen, Patterson and the like. The fact that BYU was/is able to hold its own among the other powers in the MWC, as well as local rivals like USU, probably leads to less fan-envy. Plus, factor in that Rose doesn't have to deal with any "big-conference envy" from BYU fans - the Pac-12 sucks, and outside of the MWC, there really isn't a dominant basketball conference on the west coast (and the MWC is about to be a shadow of its former self). Rose looks pretty good compared to his surroundings.



Third, and related, is that Rose has dominated Utah. That's a big key to keeping yourself off the hot seat.



Fourth, I think the expectations surrounding our basketball team are lower. When BYU basketball loses a close, winnable game against Baylor, the feeling is "hey, we held our own against the best in the country." When BYU football loses a close, winnable game against Texas (who was thought to be a good team at the time), the feeling is "I can't believe we choked that one away."



This last one bothers me the most - I think, all things considered, it's easier for BYU to have success at basketball these days than football. When you have issues like the HC, fielding a smaller 15-man team is a blessing compared to trying to wrangle up 100+ recruits. I feel like the talent pool of local LDS basketball players who ABSOLUTELY want to play at BYU is higher than football players in the same demographic. As aforementioned, there's a real power vacuum in the West that helps us snag a Carlino from time to time. Add in the fact that traditional "pro factory" schools aren't as dominant as they once were due to the "1-and-done" system, and BYU's success becomes a lot more plausible.



I'm not saying I want expectations for BYU basketball to be higher - I love Coach Rose and more importantly, I love winning, and Coach Rose does a lot of that. I just get a little frustrated when Rose gets nothing but praise and Bronco makes a fair number of BYU fans entertain thoughts of Andy Reid - but I feel both are succeeding at close to the same level, and I feel there are a lot less obstacles to winning for Rose than there are for Bronco.

Rose has done a much better job than Bronco.



Nuff said.

I don't know that I would say a much better job than bronco, but a part better job and part the contexts as described above.

I would also add that Rose just had jimmer and has the recruits lining up to come here. And with Utah in the toilet, virtually no competition for the best utah recruits.

Simply put he seems to have more MO right now than Bronco. Many more positives than negatives, 85/15 percent breakdown. Bronco a lower ratio of positive to negatives, say 65/35, maybe 70/30.

Maybe my rations could be off, but trying to quantify why most would agree that Rose has a higher rating right now.



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Rose seems to care a lot less about PR. He just worries about basketball. He doesn't worry about much else. It seems his sole and only focus is basketball.

SpiffCoug wrote:
Rose seems to care a lot less about PR. He just worries about basketball. He doesn't worry about much else. It seems his sole and only focus is basketball.

Is this why Rose seemed to do much better at PR? Maybe he is more loose and not as uptight and as a result flows better with media and PR.



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dmcougar wrote:
I don't know that I would say a much better job than bronco, but a part better job and part the contexts as described above.

I would also add that Rose just had jimmer and has the recruits lining up to come here. And with Utah in the toilet, virtually no competition for the best utah recruits.

Simply put he seems to have more MO right now than Bronco. Many more positives than negatives, 85/15 percent breakdown. Bronco a lower ratio of positive to negatives, say 65/35, maybe 70/30.

Maybe my rations could be off, but trying to quantify why most would agree that Rose has a higher rating right now.



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Recruits lining up?



Carlino from UCLA /Arizona

Zylstra from California

Abouo from Ivory Coast via Logan, UT

Hartsock from Oklahoma

Davies from Provo,UT



Sharp from Highland, UT

Austin from Alpine, UT

Winder from Nevada

Harrison from South Carolina

Rodgers from Arizona via JC





More than half the roster are from out of state. Seems like to me he is making serious recruiting efforts.

Did you really just equate losing to Baylor to losing to Texas? Baylor has not lost a game yet this season and may very well be the best team in the country. Texas had a very down year and is not the superpower they're supposed to be. Both games were close. Rose deserves a lot of credit for putting the scare into Baylor here in Provo.



not even the same league of comparison.

CougarClaw wrote:
Did you really just equate losing to Baylor to losing to Texas? Baylor has not lost a game yet this season and may very well be the best team in the country. Texas had a very down year and is not the superpower they're supposed to be. Both games were close. Rose deserves a lot of credit for putting the scare into Baylor here in Provo.



not even the same league of comparison.

No, I was comparing fan reaction in the immediate wake of the two losses.



It's very easy to recognize in January 2012 that Texas was not a great team this year. But at the time we played them, they were looking decent, they were ranked, and it was not immediately clear if their previous season was a hiccup or if they were already back to their traditional, dominating ways.



Similarly, Baylor looked good by the time they got to Provo, but I think, since conference play has started, we have a better appreciation of how good they actually were/are.



I'm not comparing the two losses from the vantage point where we now know that Texas was a bunch of imposters and that Baylor could be the best team in the nation. I am talking purely about the reaction IMMEDIATELY following the loss, where we knew that we had just barely lost to a ranked, traditionally strong team from one of the best athletic conferences in the nation.



In one instance, BYU fans were generally happy with a "moral victory" and considered the loss a credit to the program. In the other, fans generally bemoaned the death of a season and gave serious consideration as to whether our new offensive coordinator would ever be able to run the offense.



I just think it's illustrative that Coach Rose and Coach Mendenhall inherited their programs under similar circumstances. One has the 11th-best winning percentage among active coaches (w/ more than 1 season) with .730, the other has the 3rd-best winning percentage among active coaches with a winning percentage of about .760 (I believe). Both have a few marquee, big-time wins, but both generally lose to superior teams. And yet while the latter is (rightly) a golden boy who can do no wrong, the latter is becoming more and more of a pariah.

Sammich wrote:
One of the problems with slow starts in football vs. Basketball is, you lose 1 or 2 early games in football, and your record is seriously tarnished for ranking and BCS chances. Lose 3 or 4 and you can forget about it. But a basketball team could lose 6 early games and still end up with a 20+ win season and a chance at the national championship.



So I guess the question is, would Bronco do as well as Rose if he had 30 games to play instead of 13?

Wouldn't it be fun to see. I can never get enough football. But I suppose 30 games would leave an injury depleted team.

CougarClaw wrote:
Did you really just equate losing to Baylor to losing to Texas? Baylor has not lost a game yet this season and may very well be the best team in the country. Texas had a very down year and is not the superpower they're supposed to be. Both games were close. Rose deserves a lot of credit for putting the scare into Baylor here in Provo.



not even the same league of comparison.

Agree - but Texas was ranked back then and still the reaction. And Texas was at their crib. Baylor was at ours. But as I posted - Baylor, Wisconsin totaly understandable and St. Mary's pretty understandable.



USU was the stumble. Not as epic as losing to USU in football - but this year - quite a stumble.

By EVERY quantifiable measure D. Rose is a better coach.



Assistant coaches? Bronco fired his OC and DC. Dave Rose's assistants are getting HC gigs.



Strength of Schedule? Rose wins hands down. What is the hardest team Bronco has faced? TCU 2 or 3 years ago? Try SDSU, UNM, USU, and UNLV on an annual basis.



Turnaround season? Rose again. BYU was 9-26 when Rose took over. In less than one year, BYU posted 20-9 win/loss, and tied for 2nd in the basketball heavy MWC.



2005–2006 BYU 20–9 12–4 T–2nd NIT 1st Round

2006–2007 BYU 25–9 13–3 1st NCAA 1st Round

2007–2008 BYU 27–8 14–2 1st NCAA 1st Round

2008–2009 BYU 25–8 12–4 T–1st NCAA 1st Round

2009–2010 BYU 30–6 13–3 2nd NCAA 2nd Round

2010-2011 BYU 32-5 14-2 T-1st NCAA Sweet Sixteen





Dave Rose took us to the sweet 16, and if Davies hadn't screwed his way off the team, i legitimately think we end up in the Final Four or national game. Everything was lined up to have a season like we have never had before. It isn't Roses fault that one of his players is living thug life and got kicked off the team. Many of the struggles BYU has had, and are having under his tenure, are Bronco's fault. Both on and off the field.



Legitimate coaching offers? D. Rose had some SERIOUS offers coming in after last season, and he EASILY could have bailed to a better program. Instead he re-ups w BYU for 5 years. Bronco interviews at UCLA, then withdraws his name before they can eliminate him from the list. He then goes on to call a press conference and tell everyone he passed up a job "offer" (he didn't even get offered)...

Cougarbib2 wrote:

Did you really just equate losing to Baylor to losing to Texas? Baylor has not lost a game yet this season and may very well be the best team in the country. Texas had a very down year and is not the superpower they're supposed to be. Both games were close. Rose deserves a lot of credit for putting the scare into Baylor here in Provo.



not even the same league of comparison.

Agree - but Texas was ranked back then and still the reaction. And Texas was at their crib. Baylor was at ours. But as I posted - Baylor, Wisconsin totaly understandable and St. Mary's pretty understandable.



USU was the stumble. Not as epic as losing to USU in football - but this year - quite a stumble.

USU is missing their best player, who has been out. They are a much better team than they are playing. Who Davies was last year for us, Jardine is for USU. Except they have no Jimmer to cover up for it.



Losing to USU in Logan, has never been, and will never be a bad loss. Only one team in the nation has beaten the Aggies on their home court in the last 5 years. That team? A Dave Rose coached BYU team.

BlueIsBetter wrote:
By EVERY quantifiable measure D. Rose is a better coach.



Assistant coaches? Bronco fired his OC and DC. Dave Rose's assistants are getting HC gigs.



Strength of Schedule? Rose wins hands down. What is the hardest team Bronco has faced? TCU 2 or 3 years ago? Try SDSU, UNM, USU, and UNLV on an annual basis.



Turnaround season? Rose again. BYU was 9-26 when Rose took over. In less than one year, BYU posted 20-9 win/loss, and tied for 2nd in the basketball heavy MWC.



2005–2006 BYU 20–9 12–4 T–2nd NIT 1st Round

2006–2007 BYU 25–9 13–3 1st NCAA 1st Round

2007–2008 BYU 27–8 14–2 1st NCAA 1st Round

2008–2009 BYU 25–8 12–4 T–1st NCAA 1st Round

2009–2010 BYU 30–6 13–3 2nd NCAA 2nd Round

2010-2011 BYU 32-5 14-2 T-1st NCAA Sweet Sixteen





Dave Rose took us to the sweet 16, and if Davies hadn't screwed his way off the team, i legitimately think we end up in the Final Four or national game. Everything was lined up to have a season like we have never had before. It isn't Roses fault that one of his players is living thug life and got kicked off the team. Many of the struggles BYU has had, and are having under his tenure, are Bronco's fault. Both on and off the field.



Legitimate coaching offers? D. Rose had some SERIOUS offers coming in after last season, and he EASILY could have bailed to a better program. Instead he re-ups w BYU for 5 years. Bronco interviews at UCLA, then withdraws his name before they can eliminate him from the list. He then goes on to call a press conference and tell everyone he passed up a job "offer" (he didn't even get offered)...

So are we past the "Bronco is a good, but not great, coach" phase and now we're just openly loathing the guy?



I don't know how you can stand by "Coach Rose played SDSU, UNLV, etc" as a good argument for strength of schedule. BYU basketball functions almost entire outside of the Big East/ACC/Big Ten cluster the makes up the VAST majority of the top 25 in college basketball. The MWC was a good conference but it wasn't a power conference. I respect USU, UNLV, SDSU, and UNM, but last year notwithstanding, they're all fringe top 25 teams at best.



Going by 2009 ALONE, BYU played 5 of 13 opponents that were ranked either the week before or after BYU played them. That's 38%. Rose has NEVER had to play a schedule like that. Yes, Bronco plays a lot of cupcakes, but so does Rose.



On top of that, it's not like Rose has dominated our rivals. What's his W-L percentage against UNLV at the Thomas & Mack?



What we're seeing with Rose is the aura that comes with one magical season. Just two years ago, we had fans wondering if he'd ever be able to recruit/develop decent enough bigs to keep up with Stew Morrill.

Coach rose has taken some flak. I know this, because I was firing some at him after getting destroyed by UNLV at T&M a couple years in a row. Sometimes I got tired of the run and gun and the live by the three and die by the three. But at the same time I recognize that he was playing to the teams strengths (hindsight is 20/20). That said, I think that Rose gets a much bigger pass in general from the BYU fans. Maybe that is in large part because of last year which was spectacular.



BlueisBetter, since you have followed USU so closely, please tell us how many big name schools (or even ranked schools) have played at the spectrum over the past 5 years that should have beat USU. I'd bet it's not many. And even if there were the occasional upsets at the spectrum, that only indicts Rose who has had some MWC teams beat BYU at home.



Anyway, I think Bronco is an excellent coach. Besides last year, Rose's post-season record is pretty pathetic, so I don't get the whole "coach Rose finishes a year strong" argument even if he does get to play for a NC after a couple losses during the year. Both coaches are not perfect and do things their own way, which works for BYU. They both have severe limitations in the recruiting world and Rose has the benefit of only having to find a handful of kids a year to recruit. They are both EXCELLENT coaches and I hope they stick around as long as they want to keep coaching at BYU.

Dcr36 wrote:

So are we past the "Bronco is a good, but not great, coach" phase and now we're just openly loathing the guy?

I have a really hard time taking anything serious from a user that has "Pitbull" as his icon. That notwithstanding, your post is absolute conjecture and reeks of straw man. I didn't put anywhere that I loathe Bronco in my post, and I do not like being represented as such. To say that someone does not have the success as someone else isn't tearing someone down. They might still have room for you at an "occupy" something or other if that is really how your emotions operate.

I don't know how you can stand by "Coach Rose played SDSU, UNLV, etc" as a good argument for strength of schedule. BYU basketball functions almost entire outside of the Big East/ACC/Big Ten cluster the makes up the VAST majority of the top 25 in college basketball. The MWC was a good conference but it wasn't a power conference. I respect USU, UNLV, SDSU, and UNM, but last year notwithstanding, they're all fringe top 25 teams at best.

The MWC (along with USU) has been a solid conference in basketball since it's inception. It has also been one of the worst football conferences since its inception -with the top performers pulling all of the weight. The MWC was in football what the WCC is in basketball. Did you just start watching BYU basketball, or something?

Going by 2009 ALONE, BYU played 5 of 13 opponents that were ranked either the week before or after BYU played them. That's 38%. Rose has NEVER had to play a schedule like that. Yes, Bronco plays a lot of cupcakes, but so does Rose.

How many of them ended the 2009 season ranked?



Scheduling? On top of a decent MWC schedule, BYU has played:

2008

6 Louisville

1 N. Carolina

9 Michigan State

Boise State

Wake Forest

Texas A and M

(UNLV 3 times, SDSU 2 times, and UNM a couple)



2009

USU

ASU

Nebraska

Arizona

UNLV

UTEP

SDSU

UNM

SDSU

UNLV

Florida

Kansas State



2010

USU

USF

St Marys

UCLA

SDSU

UNM

UNLV

UNM

SDSU

UNM

SDSU

Gonzaga

Florida

On top of that, it's not like Rose has dominated our rivals. What's his W-L percentage against UNLV at the Thomas & Mack?

[/quote]



What is anyone's win loss record at the Thomas and Mack? Good teams win on their home court in basketball. They just do. You will rarely ever see a good team like UNLV. SDSU, or NM, or USU lose on their home court. It just doesn't happen.