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Rose gets cut a lot more slack than Bronco

by Cougarbib · 1/16/2012

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Gunk
Mars wrote:
Umm... Rose has us competing on a national level. Bronco doesn't. No "pass" or cutting slack is necessary for Rose. He's there. The proof is in the pudding for Rose. And anyone that tries to claim Rose, like Bronco, can't win the big games hasn't watched many BYU basketball games.

Bronco isn't getting BYU into a BCS game, and Rose isn't getting BYU into the Sweet Sixteen. Both are getting their teams ranked in the 20-25 range pretty well. And both occasionally win big games, but Rose plays about 3-4 times more of those per season.



Bronco does have a couple decent wins. Oklahoma, @ ranked TCU, over Utah, in bowl games, against the PAC-10...


Prior to Rose, how often did BYU make it to the Tourney? Cleveland got us there a couple of times and before that our track record was pretty bad.



Rose has us there consistently, competing. As a result, he's getting better recruits and BYU is becoming more competitive on a national level.



Bronco has stated multiple times his goal is to get BYU football playing at a national level. He hasn't yet.



Is Rose perfect, no. Can he still improve, yes. And he is improving, noticeably. A weak spot of BYU hoops as been post play. He got a new coach to coach the bigs rather than promote Nashif. A weak spot has been making in-game adjustments and Rose is getting better at that too.



You also have too keep in mind there are about twice as many basketball teams as there football teams, so getting ranked in the Top 25 in hoops is a much bigger accomplishment.



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Dcr36
Mars wrote:

I don't see many on twitter that ever call for the head of either. In fact, twitter may be the only BYU internet domain smarter than CougarCorner. CougarBoard definitely doesn't compare well to either.


BYU is well-represented on Twitter for sure. Lots of smart, funny, insightful fans. Good debate between fans. There are some lunkheads, though.


Gunk wrote:

You also have too keep in mind there are about twice as many basketball teams as there football teams, so getting ranked in the Top 25 in hoops is a much bigger accomplishment.


I agree, but only slightly. Yeah, D1 hoops has a bunch of teams, but I think the stratification of teams holds over from college football pretty strongly. B-ball teams from FBS schools tend to be better than b-ball teams from FCS/no football schools.



Of the current top 25, 80% of the teams have an FBS football program as well. Even if you include the "others receiving votes," that's still 75% (and only because some weirdos gave votes to Iona and Wagner).



I agree that the "pool of good-to-decent teams" is bigger in hoops than it is in football, but not twice as big. That'd actually be a pretty interesting survey - at what ranking does the competition pool cease to be competitive in both sports? I.e. how many "good teams" are there in FBS any given year, and how many "good teams" are there in hoops?


A weak spot has been making in-game adjustments and Rose is getting better at that too.

Heck, at this point, I'd count that as one of Rose's strengths. His teams tend to play better and better as the game progresses.
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Brayden Green
Also, it is harder to be successful consistently in bball, because as has been mentioned previously, there are more teams, but also because of the limited number of players any number of teams can have a "surprise" impact player and jump into the mix. A la Jimmer, except - we were smart, and everyone else was stupid for not taking him.



So it is easier, I think, to pop in and out of the national scene in bball, but to be there consistently is a hard task - because you have other "sweetheart" teams jumping all around you to get in.
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Brayden Green
Also, HE MAKES IN GAME ADJUSTEMENTS!!! Really well, actually. BYU rarely ever plays the same type of basketball after the half if it isn't working. And he flawlessly switches from zone to man, and is normally dead on with what he sees out there.



Also, he doesn't "buy in" to players. I LOVE THAT!!! It has been established that Carlino is far and away our best pg in the program, but if he is stinking it up - missing shots, turning it over, etc (I said IF everyone, chill out, he has been rock solid for 5 games straight ;) ) he has no problem pulling someone to let them think about it for a couple minutes, and change the course of the game.



(ps - these aren't ANTI BRONCO stuff, just a few reasons that I really love Rose, and examples of him being a great coach to me.)
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Guest
I also like the fact that Rose essentially completely ignores BYU fans. He never talks about why fans are wrong when they clamor for a kid to lose his scholarship or be kicked off the team, and then that same kid comes on and saves several key games. He just ignores the fans and builds the team the way it should be built.
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Mars


Rose is a great coach, no doubt about it.
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rblack
I know, let's fire both of our coaches (or critique them mercilessly until they leave for more money) and then we can hire someone for less money that will surely do better. I understand that SUU has a good basketball coach that we can probably pick up. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:



We currently have the best coaches at BYU for football and basketball that we have ever had and probably the best coaches for the BYU program that we will ever have. There is no reason that we shouldn't cut both of our coaches some slack. They're good coaches.
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Mars
rblack wrote:
I know, let's fire both of our coaches (or critique them mercilessly until they leave for more money) and then we can hire someone for less money that will surely do better. We currently have the best coaches at BYU for football and basketball that we have ever had and probably the best coaches for the BYU program that we will ever have. There is no reason that we shouldn't cut both of our coaches some slack. They're good coaches.

You're right, they are perfect, the #1 coach in each of their respective sports. Not only have they never made mistake, it is highly unlikely that they ever will.



Instead of discussing our teams, let's quit this whole message board thing altogether and spend more quality time knitting.



Bye bye.
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rblack
Mars wrote:
I know, let's fire both of our coaches (or critique them mercilessly until they leave for more money) and then we can hire someone for less money that will surely do better. We currently have the best coaches at BYU for football and basketball that we have ever had and probably the best coaches for the BYU program that we will ever have. There is no reason that we shouldn't cut both of our coaches some slack. They're good coaches.

You're right, they are perfect, the #1 coach in each of their respective sports. Not only have they never made mistake, it is highly unlikely that they ever will.



Instead of discussing our teams, let's quit this whole message board thing altogether and spend more quality time knitting.



Bye bye.

If you have a coach in your back pocket that you would like to propose replacing them with, you are welcome to suggest it, however, I find there are more interesting things to discuss regarding BYU sports than, "BYU never wins the tough games." Currently, BYU has coaches in both major sports that truly believe that BYU is capable of winning on the big stage. That's not to say that these coaches are without fault. I disagreed with how Rose allowed Fredette to literally take every shot late in close games whether they were good shots or bad shots. I disagreed with Bronco trying to play Heaps as a freshman. They are not perfect and some of the things I disagree with that they do, are probably the reason that they are the coach and I am not. Because of where they have brought the program, I give them alot of slack. I liked Steve Cleveland. I still remember when he left for Fresno, he stated that the administration had unrealistic expectations for the program. Then Rose came in and started talking about getting to the Final Four. He has now taken the program where it has never been, we have won in the NCAA tournament two years in a row. We have a coach that could probably get hired for any coaching vacancy he wanted. Was Utah State a bad loss, yes, was it an unforgivable one, not by a long shot. Other than Utah State, he has no bad losses this year.

Do they deserve to be cut some slack? Absolutely. Do they deserve some of the shots they take on this board? Not a chance.
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Mars
rblack wrote:
If you have a coach in your back pocket that you would like to propose replacing them with, you are welcome to suggest it.

I find there are more interesting things to discuss regarding BYU sports than, "BYU never wins the tough games."

BYU has coaches in both major sports that truly believe that BYU is capable of winning on the big stage...

Do they deserve some of the shots they take on this board? Not a chance.

1-Never said either should be fired.

2-Then go discuss those things instead. No one is forcing you to post in this thread if you don't want to. Create your own on a different topic.

3-My stance is that BYU does win some tough games, but I wish we won more. Pretty universal really, not all or none.

4-I would rather see big wins than belief in big wins. That includes TCU and Utah in football (along with the dreamed BCS game), and conference tournament titles/sweet sixteen games in basketball.

5-Coaches should own their faults, and improve on them. They get paid more than enough to do so. Yes, that is fair.
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rblack
Mars wrote:
[ 4-I would rather see big wins than belief in big wins. That includes TCU and Utah in football (along with the dreamed BCS game), and conference tournament titles/sweet sixteen games in basketball.

5-Coaches should own their faults, and improve on them. They get paid more than enough to do so. Yes, that is fair.

Both have had big wins. Both have owned their faults. Since this is the basketball board, I'll focus on Rose.

Big win: Sweet 16 without Davies. It doesn't get any bigger or harder. With Davies, I would have expected the Final 4. Without him, most had us losing in the first or second round.

Rose can't coach the big men. He doesn't know how to develop them. He knows this. BYU always seems to have good guard play. However, they have had a problem with Big Men that get into the program and don't progress. So, what does Rose do? He goes and finds someone who can coach big men. We lost the two best players from last year's team yet he reloads with another team that looks to be viable for an NCAA bid. What happened, the Big Men are coming to play. We saw a ton of progress from last year to this year. That is called owning you faults and finding a way to improve on them.
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Mars
rblack wrote:
I'll focus on Rose. Big win: Sweet 16 without Davies. It doesn't get any bigger or harder.

It wasn't a Sweet Sixteen win, for what it is worth. And a S16 win, an E8 win, a F4 win, and a championship would all be bigger and harder.



This was the first year with a post-season win under Rose. If that improves, all will be well in Cougarland.
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rblack
Mars wrote:
I'll focus on Rose. Big win: Sweet 16 without Davies. It doesn't get any bigger or harder.

It wasn't a Sweet Sixteen win, for what it is worth. And a S16 win, an E8 win, a F4 win, and a championship would all be bigger and harder.



This was the first year with a post-season win under Rose. If that improves, all will be well in Cougarland.

Way to take it out of context.

and

BYU won in the first round in 2010 and the first and second rounds in 2011. By my count that makes it the second year in a row with a post-season win.
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Mars
rblack wrote:
BYU won in the first round in 2010 and the first and second rounds in 2011. By my count that makes it the second year in a row with a post-season win.

Florida! You are absolutely right, thank you.
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Cougarbib
Conf Tourney is also post season. Rose underachieved in conference tourney. UNLV home court did not help, but he lost to others there he was supposed to beat.



NCAA tournament - more underachievement. Last year - cutting slack for not being able to replace Davies - met expectations - sort of. Last year BYU BB was on the national stage. The prior year - I guess you could argue that we were in the top 32.



National stage is Top 25. Prior to the last two years we ended up well outside that every year. And ended up off anyone's radar but our own.



Bronco has ended up on national radar with regularity.



Yes - it is easier to do that in football.



Both are excellent coaches and I doubt BYU could replace either of them with anyone better.



Basketball - Rose compares favorably to Reid and Watts who are all way better than anyone else we have had.



It is early in his career, but Bronco will be in the neighborhood of Lavell Edwards if BYU does not schedule him into oblivion. We all saw what happened to Lavell and Crew when ND, UCLA, UW, A&M, Florida State, Miami, Penn State, and such teams started showing up 2-3 times per year on the schedule and that was before any conference foes like TCU and Utah of late were around.



And every time BYU has an opening, after all the speculation about Andy Reid, etc. Or even KWhitt dies down or even Stew Morrill who is from Provo - we either promote an assistant coach or get an unproven guy like Crowton.



I hope Bronco and Rose stay until they name something other than just an Ice Cream flavor after them.



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BroncoBot
BlueIsBetter wrote:
Also, HE MAKES IN GAME ADJUSTEMENTS!!! Really well, actually. BYU rarely ever plays the same type of basketball after the half if it isn't working. And he flawlessly switches from zone to man, and is normally dead on with what he sees out there.

)

Would have liked a few more adjustments tonight.
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Cougarbib
LMU game may provide a test of the OP hypothesis



Lost a game we were heavily favored to win at home at altitude.



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Gunk
declocoug wrote:
Also, HE MAKES IN GAME ADJUSTEMENTS!!! Really well, actually. BYU rarely ever plays the same type of basketball after the half if it isn't working. And he flawlessly switches from zone to man, and is normally dead on with what he sees out there.

)

Would have liked a few more adjustments tonight.

Making in-game adjustments is still an area of improvement for Rose. He's gotten better, but he's still a long ways a way. It's usually too little too late.
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BroncoBot
Just wondering if anyone has changed their position on this. I still think that both coaches are awesome. But both have a lot of room to improve. Both get spanked periodically. But that's the nature of college sports. Hard to get too down on either Rose or Bronco after looking at the compilation of their works.
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Sammich
declocoug wrote:
Just wondering if anyone has changed their position on this. I still think that both coaches are awesome. But both have a lot of room to improve. Both get spanked periodically. But that's the nature of college sports. Hard to get too down on either Rose or Bronco after looking at the compilation of their works.

Looks like you posted this when BYU was down big and were thinking people should re-think their position because Coach Rose was getting spanked at the time. But it's still a fair question, just going the other way. :)
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