Archived Topic

Romney: "Cutting Government Spending Would Shrink Economy"

by jvquarterback · 5/8/2012

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scott715
Going back to WWII, you had soldiers coming home which stimulated the economy. Then you had reconstruction and retrofitting plants from war production to industrial production. The government did not need to spend. the economy took care of that.
B
BoiseBYU
jvquarterback wrote:
jvquarterback wrote:
You are still falling into the Keynesian trap. Any government outlays (including deficit spending) do nothing more than mis-allocate capital from the proper (free market) determined ends. Fewer jobs in non-productive sectors means more jobs in productive sectors. Which in turn leads to a more robust economy rather than a bubble economy. This is the problem with all government spending.


Let's agree to disagree. I don't think I'm falling anywhere. In my view, fewer jobs in nonproductive sectors (whatever that means but I assume you mean a govt employee) does not mean more productive jobs (whatever that means but I assume you mean private employment) One does not necessarily follow from the other. Some functions of govt. allow for greater productivity--education and security come to mind--but they do cost dollars. I am not aware how govt spending causes bubbles. Could but a number of bubbles over the decades had little to do with govt spending and lots to do with greed.


Free market driven education improves productivity. The disaster the federal and state governments call education does very little to improve productivity.



Name a bubble in the last 100 years and you can bet the government inflamed it even if they didn't start it.


Above I thought you said that govt spending causes bubbles. That is not the case. Bubbles come for all sorts of reasons. The first bubble was the tulip bubble. It was caused by speculation not govt action. The commodity bubbles of the 70's were caused by the US coming off the gold standard not govt spending per se, but I guess you could point to govt involvement there as playing a part in the bubble arising. As for your claim that free market driven education is good but I guess public education is not, I am not aware of a basis for such an all-arching claim. Assuming that for you free market driven education is private education, I see outstandingly productive students come out of public universities. I do not see inherently more productive students who went to, say, U.S.C. than UCLA. I see private schools in my states produce good college bound students, but so do the public high schools. Are there BIG problems with how we educate our children? Yes, but way overstating the matter as you do will not improve the matter
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Schmoe
I'm not sure how the conversation got steered toward education here, but let me toss in my $0.02. Public schools are great and necessary for many of our nation's youth to get a proper education. The majority of teachers are good people who do their best to do a good job, and many of the failings blamed on schools are really a lack of expectations/discipline/motivation from home. Charter schools are also great, improve competition in education, create more jobs for teachers (which is why teachers unions SHOULD be in favor of them, but they're so backwards that they don't know their own butt from a hole in the ground), and get parents to willingly put some extra money into education. ALWAYS vote for charter schools. The big problem with education is teachers unions, plain and simple.
J
jvquarterback
Let's define a bubble as a mis-allocation of capital. Of course individuals often make poor decisions regarding purchases and investments. But there is a feedback mechanism which stops their poor choices quickly. Government intervention breaks (or at least prolongs) the feedback loop.



In your examples prior to the the "Tulip Bubble" the Dutch government banned short-selling. The Dutch Government also absolved all purchasers of futures contracts (turning them into option contracts) in a 1637 decree. The effect of the debasement of the Dutch currency at the time may also have contributed to the bubble effect. Taking government actions into account purchasers were acting in a rational manner. The US government's debasement of the dollar when the gold-backing was removed is a classic example of mal-investment due to increased government spending.



Bubbles have been going on since governments began inflating the money supply by adding dross to their coins. Have you read about how the Roman empire destroyed its currency leading to massive malinvestment? The Bible in both the Old an New Testaments counsel against inflating the money supply in this manner.



Education is an enormous bubble. Really all it should take is a quick review of your own "education" to see how much of your life has been wasted as a result of government intervention. Graduates of UCLA nor USC are both less productive than they would be without government intervention. Check out this article about the mal-investment caused by government education outlays.
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scott715
Which Bible passage were you quoting? I would like to think about that.
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jvquarterback
scott715 wrote:
Which Bible passage were you quoting? I would like to think about that.


Basically all of the ones in the Old Testament referring to just weights and balances (Proverbs 20:23, Proverbs 16:11, Leviticus 19:36) as well as Isaiah's condemnation of Israel for introducing dross into it's silver and dilution of wine with water (both were used as currency)(Isaiah 1:21-22). Proverbs 25:4 also counsels against adding dross to silver.



Debasing the currency is the same as adding dross to silver or gold.
S
snoscythe
As much as I love the law of Moses and the Proverbs, do you have anything from the New Testament as you claim? I'm pretty sure scriptures dealing with water to wine and dross to precious metals are less inflationary cautions, and more metaphors to keeping truth and the gospel pure, but that's just me.
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SpiffCoug
Found on. Not sure how it applies to the devaluation of the dollar though:



Alma Chapter 11:



3 And the judge received for his wages aaccording to his time—a bsenine of gold for a day, or a senum of silver, which is equal to a senine of gold; and this is according to the law which was given.

4 Now these are the names of the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver, according to their value. And the names are given by the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the amanner of the Jews who were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people, in every generation, until the reign of the judges, they having been bestablished by king Mosiah.



5 Now the reckoning is thus—a senine of gold, a seon of gold, a shum of gold, and a limnah of gold.



6 A senum of silver, an amnor of silver, an ezrom of silver, and an onti of silver.



7 A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of barley, and also for a measure of every kind of grain.



8 Now the amount of a seon of gold was twice the value of a senine.



9 And a shum of gold was twice the value of a seon.



10 And a limnah of gold was the value of them all.

11 And an amnor of silver was as great as two senums.



12 And an ezrom of silver was as great as four senums.



13 And an onti was as great as them all.



14 Now this is the value of the lesser numbers of their reckoning—



15 A shiblon is half of a senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a measure of barley.



16 And a shiblum is a half of a shiblon.



17 And a leah is the half of a shiblum.



18 Now this is their number, according to their reckoning.



19 Now an antion of gold is equal to three shiblons.
J
jvquarterback
snoscythe wrote:
As much as I love the law of Moses and the Proverbs, do you have anything from the New Testament as you claim? I'm pretty sure scriptures dealing with water to wine and dross to precious metals are less inflationary cautions, and more metaphors to keeping truth and the gospel pure, but that's just me.


I think Christ said thou shalt not steal a couple times. Some people interpret what He had to say about the roman penny in the fish's mouth as an indictment of dross introduced into roman coinage. But I'll stick with his admonition that we refrain from defrauding and stealing.



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snoscythe
jvquarterback wrote:
As much as I love the law of Moses and the Proverbs, do you have anything from the New Testament as you claim? I'm pretty sure scriptures dealing with water to wine and dross to precious metals are less inflationary cautions, and more metaphors to keeping truth and the gospel pure, but that's just me.


I think Christ said thou shalt not steal a couple times. Some people interpret what He had to say about the roman penny in the fish's mouth as an indictment of dross introduced into roman coinage. But I'll stick with his admonition that we refrain from defrauding and stealing.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">


LOL. So you got nothing.
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jvquarterback
snoscythe wrote:
snoscythe wrote:
As much as I love the law of Moses and the Proverbs, do you have anything from the New Testament as you claim? I'm pretty sure scriptures dealing with water to wine and dross to precious metals are less inflationary cautions, and more metaphors to keeping truth and the gospel pure, but that's just me.


I think Christ said thou shalt not steal a couple times. Some people interpret what He had to say about the roman penny in the fish's mouth as an indictment of dross introduced into roman coinage. But I'll stick with his admonition that we refrain from defrauding and stealing.


LOL. So you got nothing.


Are you really arguing that Christ's command to not steal does not encompass promising to pay someone in silver coins and then taking your silver coins and diluting them with 90% tin?
J
jvquarterback
Back on topic. Here is evidence that Romney's (and Obama's) plans for closing GDP gaps as a way to decrease the deficit won't work.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQu7V9pMK48&feature=player_embedded



Here's the Economic study that she cites out of Harvard:



http://www.nber.org/papers/w15438" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Large Changes in Fiscal Policy: Taxes Versus Spending

Alberto F. Alesina, Silvia Ardagna

NBER Working Paper No. 15438

Issued in October 2009

NBER Program(s): POL



We examine the evidence on episodes of large stances in fiscal policy, both in cases of fiscal stimuli and in that of fiscal adjustments in OECD countries from 1970 to 2007. Fiscal stimuli based upon tax cuts are more likely to increase growth than those based upon spending increases. As for fiscal adjustments, those based upon spending cuts and no tax increases are more likely to reduce deficits and debt over GDP ratios than those based upon tax increases. In addition, adjustments on the spending side rather than on the tax side are less likely to create recessions. We confirm these results with simple regression analysis.



Published: Large Changes in Fiscal Policy: Taxes versus Spending, Alberto Alesina, Silvia Ardagna, in Tax Policy and the Economy, Volume 24 (2010), The University of Chicago Press

You may purchase this paper on-line in .pdf format from SSRN.com ($5) for electronic delivery."

-------------------------------------------------------------

Here's Dr. Alesina's Report on this study prepared for a conference in Madrid:



http://www.economics.harvard.edu/app...ts_lessons.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Do fiscal adjustments always cause recessions?



The answer to this question is a loud no. Starting from the early nineties, several authors have noted how large and decisive deficit reduction policies in several European countries were accompanied by increases in growth, the opposite of the standard Keynesian story."



More at link...
S
SpiffCoug
Austerity is NOT Obama's plan.
S
snoscythe
jvquarterback wrote:
jvquarterback wrote:
As much as I love the law of Moses and the Proverbs, do you have anything from the New Testament as you claim? I'm pretty sure scriptures dealing with water to wine and dross to precious metals are less inflationary cautions, and more metaphors to keeping truth and the gospel pure, but that's just me.


I think Christ said thou shalt not steal a couple times. Some people interpret what He had to say about the roman penny in the fish's mouth as an indictment of dross introduced into roman coinage. But I'll stick with his admonition that we refrain from defrauding and stealing.


LOL. So you got nothing.


Are you really arguing that Christ's command to not steal does not encompass promising to pay someone in silver coins and then taking your silver coins and diluting them with 90% tin?


I'm saying you're straining all credibility to find a scriptural basis for your arguments against inflation. I mean even Obama can find more powerful basis in the words of the prophets for his economics (and Obamacare) that what you have stretched beyond reason to support yours:



"But since all capitalistic systems are founded upon the institution of private property, inheritance and the profit motive, great inequalities of ownership and income inevitably result.... Among the more plausible suggestions offered to correct existing abuses without adversely affecting the productive system, is to continue the socialization of our service institutions through a system of progressive taxation based upon ability to pay…taking the bulk of their [captains of industry] profits to finance free education, free libraries, free public parks and recreation centers, unemployment insurance, old age benefits, sickness and accident insurance, and perhaps eventually free medical aid and hospital service. …The average family may not have much more money, if any, to spend under such a system than now. But…then the meager family income can be devoted entirely to the necessities of life, plus some of the comforts now enjoyed by the higher income classes. …To finance all of this, of course, will necessitate huge sums of money. …And it will also require a carefully worked out tax system so that every one will contribute according to his financial ability. Inheritance and estate taxes will become progressively higher, until the present system of permitting large fortunes to be passed on from generation to generation will become extinct. And incidentally, the so-called idle rich who have been living on the earnings of past generations will be no more."



- Heber J. Grant 1938 (from 1939 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide)
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jvquarterback
SpiffCoug wrote:
Austerity is NOT Obama's plan.


Very good. Now for the corollary: Austerity is NOT Romney's plan.
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snoscythe
jvquarterback wrote:
Austerity is NOT Obama's plan.


Very good. Now for the corollary: Austerity is NOT Romney's plan.


OMG OMG OMG--they MUST be identical!!!!!!!!!!
J
jvquarterback
snoscythe wrote:
SpiffCoug wrote:
Austerity is NOT Obama's plan.


Very good. Now for the corollary: Austerity is NOT Romney's plan.


OMG OMG OMG--they MUST be identical!!!!!!!!!!


In fact Romney is arguing, just as Obama does, that austerity measures would harm the economy. The data I cited above indicates the exact opposite.



When will people understand you can't trust anyone who's main contributors are the benefactors of both the monetary and fiscal profligacy endorsed by Obama and Romney?
B
BoiseBYU
jvquarterback wrote:
Which Bible passage were you quoting? I would like to think about that.


Basically all of the ones in the Old Testament referring to just weights and balances (Proverbs 20:23, Proverbs 16:11, Leviticus 19:36) as well as Isaiah's condemnation of Israel for introducing dross into it's silver and dilution of wine with water (both were used as currency)(Isaiah 1:21-22). Proverbs 25:4 also counsels against adding dross to silver.



Debasing the currency is the same as adding dross to silver or gold.


JV it is pretty clear you are a smart as well as passionate guy when it comes to this stuff. Smarter and more passionate than me, that's for sure. But I went back and read these scriptures and they do not to my humble eye come close to supporting what you assert. I invite anyone interested to review for themselves. Isaiah does NOT counsel in those verses against adding dross to silver. What he is doing instead is lamenting Israel's wickedness and in metaphor declaring that its righteousness has been diluted and, like adding dross to silver, this is bad. It is NOT that this is what Israel was doing but that its wickedness was like diluting its righteousness. Further Proverbs 25:4 states that if you take away the dross from silver it will be finer, a metaphor again to urging us to purify ourselves. The verse is not condemning per se adding dross to silver. In short, the scriptures cited really do not get into economics and inflationary practices and for you to cite to them to advance your arguments is weak sauce indeed.
G
Guest
This sounds like a man's philosophy mixed with scripture
B
BroncoBot
I'm not going to mix scriptures with economic policies (although I HIGHLY doubt that Isaiah would condone any government adding dross to silver, especially since he equates it to defiling oneself but maintaining an appearance of righteousness) and simply state that I'm much closer to Ezra Taft Benson's view of the government than I am to Heber J. Grant's.



To me this comes down to a simple line drawn in the sand; whether or not you believe that government should continue it's spending at the pace it is currently spending. If you do, you are a supporter or big government and should not be too ashamed of the way our current president has conducted himself in this regard. To me Romney has made it clear that he is not a supporter of large cuts in spending. He is a big government guy. This is why he rubs me the wrong way. There will be serious repercussions to spending cuts which is why, I believe, so many politicians don't want to make them, it puts their future in jeopardy. It will be painful. But only because we have let it get to this point. Time to end the spending, wars, and political games and return America to its citizens.



If we want to avoid the chaos that has engulfed Greece and other European countries, it's time to get serious about spending cuts and slimming the government from the top down. Honestly, I'm surprised that so many on this forum are "OK" with what Romney said about this.
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