Hurry and pass gun control before we have time to read it!

Let's take a little closer look at the laws in Utah.



From the Utah Public safety website. The LDS Church has posted their intention to have non L.E. persons not bring weapons into their buildings of worship. However, if you read 3.(b), exceptions can be made to this policy. If you look at 4.(b), this policy remains in effect for 1 year, unless the Church re-files. Section 6.(a) states that violation is an "infraction." Same as a traffic ticket.



Firearm Laws -

Carrying a Gun



In Person -

It is unlawful for a person with or without a firearm permit to carry a firearm in the following locations:

3. Any courthouse, churches if posted ......



(3) A church or organization operating a house of worship and giving notice that firearms are prohibited may:

(b) provide or allow exceptions to the prohibition as the church or organization considers advisable.

(4)

(b) Any notice given pursuant to Subsection (2)(c), (d), or (e) shall remain in effect until revoked or for a period of one year from the date the notice was originally given, whichever occurs first.

(6) A violation of this section is an infraction.



So, to sum it up -

1. L.E. folks can bring their concealed weapons to Church anytime - they are exempted.

2. Church officials can make exceptions to this policy and give any non-L.E. Church member permission to bring their permitted concealed weapon inside the building - case by case.

3. This policy will last 1 year unless the Church re-files. It is in effect 1 year at a time.

4. If you violate this law/policy, it's an infraction.

I now think cornhole is going what cornhole does best- trolling. Most of us are fine with the LDS church not encouraging the brandishing of firearms at services. This does not support your argument that the USA should ban weapons.



Let's talk about the real issue at hand. You have shown ZERO evidence as to how a nationwide ban on any weapon makes us more safe or how such a ban would be considered constitutional.



This LDS church business is just trolling at its best. It has no bearing on the personal rights a person has to bear arms.

cornhole153 wrote:
So I guess since you guys can't rebut my original, and only, point that the church bans guns from its buildings for safety reasons, you've decided to changes argument to the Church is anti 2nd amendment?



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You've done a good job of showing your position's weekness with this post.



The Church doesn't "Ban" guns in it's buildings, it expressly "Allows" them in the buildings, all you have to do is be a peace officer, and you're welcome to bring guns (as many as you want) into the church! If not for safety reasons then why else are they allowed to have them?



Stated another way, the Church does not have to allow peace officers to carry guns in the building, and yet, they specifically called out the fact that those folks are just fine in the building.

Again, if you had a young single adult ward comprised of police officers – according to church policy every one of them would be within Church policy to have a shot gun, handgun and rifle sitting on the pew with them during sacrament meeting, and yet, according to your position this can be called by you a “ban”



You understand the difference between "Safety" and "liability" You are ignoring that difference in this thread though, which is why I'm back out of this conversation....

BroncoBot wrote:
I now think cornhole is going what cornhole does best- trolling. Most of us are fine with the LDS church not encouraging the brandishing of firearms at services. This does not support your argument that the USA should ban weapons.



Let's talk about the real issue at hand. You have shown ZERO evidence as to how a nationwide ban on any weapon makes us more safe or how such a ban would be considered constitutional.



This LDS church business is just trolling at its best. It has no bearing on the personal rights a person has to bear arms.

+1. There ya go. It's all smoke, and smoke, and smoke. There is no point, no substance.



It all about the 2nd Amendment. Ya don't like it, quit yapping, read Article V of the U.S. Constitution, and begin the Amendment process. Otherwise, you are a troll.

cornhole153 wrote:
my original, and only, point that the church bans guns from its buildings

Except from when you've departed from that point to include campuses, parking lots, etc....



Also--note that it is up to you to prove your assertion, not for anyone else to rebut it. Otherwise, I'd like to see you rebut with proof my assertion that you are merely on this site to troll.

Ddawg wrote:
Let's take a little closer look at the laws in Utah.



From the Utah Public safety website. The LDS Church has posted their intention to have non L.E. persons not bring weapons into their buildings of worship. However, if you read 3.(b), exceptions can be made to this policy. If you look at 4.(b), this policy remains in effect for 1 year, unless the Church re-files. Section 6.(a) states that violation is an "infraction." Same as a traffic ticket.



Firearm Laws -

Carrying a Gun



In Person -

It is unlawful for a person with or without a firearm permit to carry a firearm in the following locations:

3. Any courthouse, churches if posted ......



(3) A church or organization operating a house of worship and giving notice that firearms are prohibited may:

(b) provide or allow exceptions to the prohibition as the church or organization considers advisable.

(4)

(b) Any notice given pursuant to Subsection (2)(c), (d), or (e) shall remain in effect until revoked or for a period of one year from the date the notice was originally given, whichever occurs first.

(6) A violation of this section is an infraction.



So, to sum it up -

1. L.E. folks can bring their concealed weapons to Church anytime - they are exempted.

2. Church officials can make exceptions to this policy and give any non-L.E. Church member permission to bring their permitted concealed weapon inside the building - case by case.

3. This policy will last 1 year unless the Church re-files. It is in effect 1 year at a time.

4. If you violate this law/policy, it's an infraction.

Where did you get that L.E. folks are exempted from 76-10-530?



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snoscythe wrote:

my original, and only, point that the church bans guns from its buildings

Except from when you've departed from that point to include campuses, parking lots, etc....



Also--note that it is up to you to prove your assertion, not for anyone else to rebut it. Otherwise, I'd like to see you rebut with proof my assertion that you are merely on this site to troll.

I don't think I said parking lots. And BYU does ban guns on campus. And, my point hardly hinges on whether the church's ban of guns on its property includes its parking lots.



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cornhole153 wrote:

Let's take a little closer look at the laws in Utah.



From the Utah Public safety website. The LDS Church has posted their intention to have non L.E. persons not bring weapons into their buildings of worship. However, if you read 3.(b), exceptions can be made to this policy. If you look at 4.(b), this policy remains in effect for 1 year, unless the Church re-files. Section 6.(a) states that violation is an "infraction." Same as a traffic ticket.



Firearm Laws -

Carrying a Gun



In Person -

It is unlawful for a person with or without a firearm permit to carry a firearm in the following locations:

3. Any courthouse, churches if posted ......



(3) A church or organization operating a house of worship and giving notice that firearms are prohibited may:

(b) provide or allow exceptions to the prohibition as the church or organization considers advisable.

(4)

(b) Any notice given pursuant to Subsection (2)(c), (d), or (e) shall remain in effect until revoked or for a period of one year from the date the notice was originally given, whichever occurs first.

(6) A violation of this section is an infraction.



So, to sum it up -

1. L.E. folks can bring their concealed weapons to Church anytime - they are exempted.

2. Church officials can make exceptions to this policy and give any non-L.E. Church member permission to bring their permitted concealed weapon inside the building - case by case.

3. This policy will last 1 year unless the Church re-files. It is in effect 1 year at a time.

4. If you violate this law/policy, it's an infraction.

Where did you get that L.E. folks are exempted from 76-10-530?



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Here ya go - from the Utah Public Safety website.



Exemptions to Utah Concealed Carry Laws



The following are exempt from Utah weapon laws:



1. U. S. Marshals engaged in their official duties;

2. Federal officials required to carry firearms while engaged in their official duties;

3. Law enforcement officials;

4. Common carriers while engaged in the regular transportation of firearms as merchandise.



Laws governing the use of concealed firearms differ from state to state. It is important to understand the laws to ensure that your actions are in compliance with Utah law.



Sources: 53-5-704 Division duties - Utah Code §§ 23-20-11 et seq., 24-2-17, 76-10-301, 76-10-501 et seq.



http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/FirearmLaws.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I already posted this on Page 16 and addressed the exemption of "Carry and Conceal Laws" in Utah, where you said, the Bishop asked the L.E. officer to break the law. Not so, he is exempt per Utah law.

Ddawg wrote:

tww wrote:
Cornhole is suffering from a common liberal disorder. He is putting policy before doctrine.



The doctrine of the church is that the constitution was established by God for the protection of our agency.



The church has a public policy of discouraging weapons on church property.



A simple liberal mind has difficulty in processing the two simultaneously. He concludes that they are in conflict when they are not. Since the constitution is an enemy of liberalism he sets aside church doctrine and uses policy to discredit and undermine the constitution, which was never the intent of the policy.



The intent of the policy is to save the church a lot of bad publicity and law suites. It is not intended to change doctrine or disarm the church membership.



As a bit of anecdotal evidence I can share with you something that I was told by a plain clothes law enforcement officer. As best as I remember, he was called into his bishop's office and the conversation went something like this.



Bishop: "How is your work in law enforcement going?"

off duty officer: "There are still a lot of crazies and bad guys out there so I have job security."

Bishop: "We agree. The fact that there are crazies and bad guys out there gives us concern for the welfare of the members of this ward."

off duty officer: "How can I help?"

Bishop: "Well.... We cannot ask you to bring your gun to church."

off duty officer: "Okay."

Bishop: "Do you understand?"

officer: "Yes."

If that bishop is in Utah, he just asked that officer to break the law. Not sure that's great evidence.



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Really? Better check the law you are quoting. There are exemptions. Look closely at #3.



Exemptions to Utah Concealed Carry Laws



The following are exempt from Utah weapon laws:

1. U. S. Marshals engaged in their official duties;

2. Federal officials required to carry firearms while engaged in their official duties;

3. Law enforcement officials;

4. Common carriers while engaged in the regular transportation of firearms as merchandise.



So - did that Bishop really break the law? Nope. L.E. officials are exempt, and it does not differentiate between "off duty" and "on duty." If you are L.E., you are exempt.

cornhole153 wrote:

cornhole153 wrote:
my original, and only, point that the church bans guns from its buildings

Except from when you've departed from that point to include campuses, parking lots, etc....



Also--note that it is up to you to prove your assertion, not for anyone else to rebut it. Otherwise, I'd like to see you rebut with proof my assertion that you are merely on this site to troll.

I don't think I said parking lots. And BYU does ban guns on campus. And, my point hardly hinges on whether the church's ban of guns on its property includes its parking lots.



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So where do you stand on the candle ban? Do we need to go nationwide? What about shorts above the knee? Off-shoulder shirts?

snoscythe wrote:

snoscythe wrote:

my original, and only, point that the church bans guns from its buildings

Except from when you've departed from that point to include campuses, parking lots, etc....



Also--note that it is up to you to prove your assertion, not for anyone else to rebut it. Otherwise, I'd like to see you rebut with proof my assertion that you are merely on this site to troll.

I don't think I said parking lots. And BYU does ban guns on campus. And, my point hardly hinges on whether the church's ban of guns on its property includes its parking lots.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

So where do you stand on the candle ban? Do we need to go nationwide? What about shorts above the knee? Off-shoulder shirts?

:lol: :lol:

Sideburn length? facial hair?? Where does the madness end?

Ddawg wrote:



So, to sum it up -

1. L.E. folks can bring their concealed weapons to Church anytime - they are exempted.

2. Church officials can make exceptions to this policy and give any non-L.E. Church member permission to bring their permitted concealed weapon inside the building - case by case.

3. This policy will last 1 year unless the Church re-files. It is in effect 1 year at a time.

4. If you violate this law/policy, it's an infraction.

1. Wrong, twice. The exemption you posted, exempts officers, etc. from the requirement to get concealed to carry licenses under 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, not from the 76-10-530 requirements. Notice 76-10-530 applies widely to "A person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7..."



Even if the law didn't bar officer etc. to enter the church with a gun, the church does unless the officer is required to carry , which of duty officers aren't.



2. Sure... local officials can go rogue and let guns in legally, however this would be contrary to the church's published guidance. As we are discussing the churches policy, I'm not sure of your point?



3. Point? The Church posted notice this year.



4. It's still illegal.

ABYUFAN wrote:

So I guess since you guys can't rebut my original, and only, point that the church bans guns from its buildings for safety reasons, you've decided to changes argument to the Church is anti 2nd amendment?



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

You've done a good job of showing your position's weekness with this post.



The Church doesn't "Ban" guns in it's buildings, it expressly "Allows" them in the buildings, all you have to do is be a peace officer, and you're welcome to bring guns (as many as you want) into the church! If not for safety reasons then why else are they allowed to have them?



Stated another way, the Church does not have to allow peace officers to carry guns in the building, and yet, they specifically called out the fact that those folks are just fine in the building.

Again, if you had a young single adult ward comprised of police officers – according to church policy every one of them would be within Church policy to have a shot gun, handgun and rifle sitting on the pew with them during sacrament meeting, and yet, according to your position this can be called by you a “ban”



You understand the difference between "Safety" and "liability" You are ignoring that difference in this thread though, which is why I'm back out of this conversation....

Where does it expressly allow this? Even police officers are expressly barred from bringing their guns, unless they are required to so. I guess if all the cops in this cop ward of yours were all on duty and required to enter the church to make some sort of bust--then yes, it would be within church policy to have them there with their guns.

snoscythe wrote:

snoscythe wrote:

my original, and only, point that the church bans guns from its buildings

Except from when you've departed from that point to include campuses, parking lots, etc....



Also--note that it is up to you to prove your assertion, not for anyone else to rebut it. Otherwise, I'd like to see you rebut with proof my assertion that you are merely on this site to troll.

I don't think I said parking lots. And BYU does ban guns on campus. And, my point hardly hinges on whether the church's ban of guns on its property includes its parking lots.



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So where do you stand on the candle ban? Do we need to go nationwide? What about shorts above the knee? Off-shoulder shirts?

The church's position on candles, it seems, is that they are a safety hazard. Same as guns. I suppose it's possible that the church bans candles and guns to placate the mormon liberals (all 15 of them) as some here have suggested, but that seems a bit far fetched to me. However, if that is what you have to conclude to continue to feel that your guns make your home safer, that your prerogative.



I don't think dress codes are safety issues.

cornhole153 wrote:

cornhole153 wrote:

cornhole153 wrote:
my original, and only, point that the church bans guns from its buildings

Except from when you've departed from that point to include campuses, parking lots, etc....



Also--note that it is up to you to prove your assertion, not for anyone else to rebut it. Otherwise, I'd like to see you rebut with proof my assertion that you are merely on this site to troll.

I don't think I said parking lots. And BYU does ban guns on campus. And, my point hardly hinges on whether the church's ban of guns on its property includes its parking lots.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

So where do you stand on the candle ban? Do we need to go nationwide? What about shorts above the knee? Off-shoulder shirts?

The church's position on candles, it seems, is that they are a safety hazard. Same as guns. I suppose it's possible that the church bans candles and guns to placate the mormon liberals (all 15 of them) as some here have suggested, but that seems a bit far fetched to me. However, if that is what you have to conclude to continue to feel that your guns make your home safer, that your prerogative.



I don't think dress codes are safety issues.

And neither are gun regulations, they are liability issues, and you know tha. Also you are the only one who beleives that there is some sort of prohibition of off duty officers, which shows a complete lack of understanding of first response procedures as well as emergency personnel

cornhole153 wrote:

So, to sum it up -

1. L.E. folks can bring their concealed weapons to Church anytime - they are exempted.

2. Church officials can make exceptions to this policy and give any non-L.E. Church member permission to bring their permitted concealed weapon inside the building - case by case.

3. This policy will last 1 year unless the Church re-files. It is in effect 1 year at a time.

4. If you violate this law/policy, it's an infraction.

1. Wrong, twice. The exemption you posted, exempts officers, etc. from the requirement to get concealed to carry licenses under 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, not from the 76-10-530 requirements. Notice 76-10-530 applies widely to "A person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7..."



Even if the law didn't bar officer etc. to enter the church with a gun, the church does unless the officer is required to carry , which of duty officers aren't.



2. Sure... local officials can go rogue and let guns in legally, however this would be contrary to the church's published guidance. As we are discussing the churches policy, I'm not sure of your point?



3. Point? The Church posted notice this year.



4. It's still illegal.

Ok mr. cornhole, just for you. This morning I have been on the phone with Watch Sergeants from Orem PD and SLC PD. We discussed in detail whether off duty L.E. officers can take their concealed weapons into an LDS Church. They can and do - period.



What part of - "The following are exempt from Utah weapon laws" do you not understand?



Here it is again -

Exemptions to Utah Concealed Carry Laws



The following are exempt from Utah weapon laws:



1. U. S. Marshals engaged in their official duties;

2. Federal officials required to carry firearms while engaged in their official duties;

3. Law enforcement officials;

4. Common carriers while engaged in the regular transportation of firearms as merchandise.



Laws governing the use of concealed firearms differ from state to state. It is important to understand the laws to ensure that your actions are in compliance with Utah law.



http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/FirearmLaws.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;





So, you can claim whatever you want. But, 2 Utah police Sergeants laughed over the phone when I told them your position.



Have a nice day.

Ddawg wrote:

Ddawg wrote:



So, to sum it up -

1. L.E. folks can bring their concealed weapons to Church anytime - they are exempted.

2. Church officials can make exceptions to this policy and give any non-L.E. Church member permission to bring their permitted concealed weapon inside the building - case by case.

3. This policy will last 1 year unless the Church re-files. It is in effect 1 year at a time.

4. If you violate this law/policy, it's an infraction.

1. Wrong, twice. The exemption you posted, exempts officers, etc. from the requirement to get concealed to carry licenses under 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, not from the 76-10-530 requirements. Notice 76-10-530 applies widely to "A person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7..."



Even if the law didn't bar officer etc. to enter the church with a gun, the church does unless the officer is required to carry , which of duty officers aren't.



2. Sure... local officials can go rogue and let guns in legally, however this would be contrary to the church's published guidance. As we are discussing the churches policy, I'm not sure of your point?



3. Point? The Church posted notice this year.



4. It's still illegal.

Ok mr. cornhole, just for you. This morning I have been on the phone with Watch Sergeants from Orem PD and SLC PD. We discussed in detail whether off duty L.E. officers can take their concealed weapons into an LDS Church. They can and do - period.



What part of - "The following are exempt from Utah weapon laws" do you not understand?



Here it is again -

Exemptions to Utah Concealed Carry Laws



The following are exempt from Utah weapon laws:



1. U. S. Marshals engaged in their official duties;

2. Federal officials required to carry firearms while engaged in their official duties;

3. Law enforcement officials;

4. Common carriers while engaged in the regular transportation of firearms as merchandise.



Laws governing the use of concealed firearms differ from state to state. It is important to understand the laws to ensure that your actions are in compliance with Utah law.



http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/FirearmLaws.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;





So, you can claim whatever you want. But, 2 Utah police Sergeants laughed over the phone when I told them your position.



Have a nice day.

Well at a minimum they are breaking the Church's policy, unless the off duty cops are required to carry. Are they (cite)?



And, with all due respect, I don't share their reading of the Utah Code. The exception specifially states that it applies to certain articulated code sections (the concealed carry laws), and the section prohibiting 'guns in church' (which is not a concealed weapons provision) is not included.



Obvoiusly this exemption doesn't allow common carriers or police officers to sell weapons to minors, file off serial numbers, or discharge weapons while intoxicated (all weapons laws). So you actually have to look a little closer to see what exactly the exception applies to. It's all there in the Utah Code.



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ABYUFAN wrote:

snoscythe wrote:

snoscythe wrote:

my original, and only, point that the church bans guns from its buildings

Except from when you've departed from that point to include campuses, parking lots, etc....



Also--note that it is up to you to prove your assertion, not for anyone else to rebut it. Otherwise, I'd like to see you rebut with proof my assertion that you are merely on this site to troll.

I don't think I said parking lots. And BYU does ban guns on campus. And, my point hardly hinges on whether the church's ban of guns on its property includes its parking lots.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

So where do you stand on the candle ban? Do we need to go nationwide? What about shorts above the knee? Off-shoulder shirts?

The church's position on candles, it seems, is that they are a safety hazard. Same as guns. I suppose it's possible that the church bans candles and guns to placate the mormon liberals (all 15 of them) as some here have suggested, but that seems a bit far fetched to me. However, if that is what you have to conclude to continue to feel that your guns make your home safer, that your prerogative.



I don't think dress codes are safety issues.

And neither are gun regulations, they are liability issues, and you know tha. Also you are the only one who beleives that there is some sort of prohibition of off duty officers, which shows a complete lack of understanding of first response procedures as well as emergency personnel

How are guns a liability but not a safety issue? Are you saying they may do financial or property damage but won't inflict personal injuries?



Oh, and all I'm say re off duty cops, is that unless they are required to carry, it's church policy that they don't bring their guns into church. I don't see how any rational person could read the church's handbook statement and disagree with this.



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Regardless, you simply don't believe in the 2nd Amendment and wish it could be done away with without actually amending the Constitution.

SpiffCoug wrote:
Regardless, you simply don't believe in the 2nd Amendment and wish it could be done away with without actually amending the Constitution.

I'd prefer an amendment to a strained SC interpretation. What's so wrong with wanting a mostly gunless society--like we have in church, BYU, and the temples?



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