Irony for abortion doctor / serial killer

In an ironic ruling the Kermit Gosnell was sentenced to life in prison after a career of ending lives shortly after they began.



I can't help but wonder, do you think those who support elective abortions (financially, civicly, etc) will one day stand accountable in the judgement for the vile practice and murder of the most innocent of all creations along with those who actually perform the deed?

You can bet your last dollar on that one.

Yep. [elective, medically unnecessary] Abortion is the greatest stain on this country next to slavery.

Dude is so old he never would have made it to the execution chamber with a half-devoted legal team. He's already over 70, and with a prison lifestyle, no way he lasts through the challenges and appeals.



We get the same result, but we don't have to waste any more resources on this guy.

It's semi-justice, and semi-satisfying. This Kermit Gosnell is a monster. I was shocked he showed no remorse. I never heard of any apology. Who knows how many children that were viable, living humans beings, he murdered.



I am satisfied and pleased with the conviction. The life sentence is not quite there.

In Sunday School class I read a scripture that says thou shalt not kill nor do anything like unto it. D&C 59:6. I have thought that scripture most assuredly applies to the abortion on demand doctors.

Prior to graduating medical school, I was fairly pro choice. Studying embryology and obgyn changed my attitude. I agree with BoiseByu's citation of D&C. However, I do not believe that abortion is frankly synonymous with murder. I believe multiple Church authorities have stated this as well. In my mission, this who had had abortions were quickly allowed baptism. Those guilty of 1st or 2nd degree murder were not.

Elective abortion is certainly an awful, terrible and serious sin. Assuming it is equal to murder, however, leads us to faulty moral reasoning.

There is obviously some shades of grey when it comes to abortion - as the Church is not absolute on it. But there are even shades of grey when it comes to murder too, I guess (Nephi, war, etc.)



But ending a life is not something that should be done lightly or cavalierly. There can be no argument that a fetus is not alive.

According to my religious understanding, death is the permanent separation of the spirit from the mortal body--PERMANENT because an out of body experience is temporary and certainly not considered death, and MORTAL BODY, because separation from a physical body is not permanent, but separation from a mortal body is.



Now, operating from that religious understanding of what death is, I cannot possibly equate abortion to murder without defining something that the Church has never taken an official doctrinal stance on--when the spirit enters the body.



So, in my mind, abortion is not necessarily equal to murder, but it is a very serious sin to interfere with God's process for creating life on earth...one for which those who know better will certainly be held accountable unless they have sincerely repented of such a grevious sin.

Cougarfan87 wrote:
According to my religious understanding, death is the permanent separation of the spirit from the mortal body--PERMANENT because an out of body experience is temporary and certainly not considered death, and MORTAL BODY, because separation from a physical body is not permanent, but separation from a mortal body is.



Now, operating from that religious understanding of what death is, I cannot possibly equate abortion to murder without defining something that the Church has never taken an official doctrinal stance on--when the spirit enters the body.



So, in my mind, abortion is not necessarily equal to murder, but it is a very serious sin to interfere with God's process for creating life on earth...one for which those who know better will certainly be held accountable unless they have sincerely repented of such a grevious sin.

I like this argument, made me think. Here's the flaw: I think we can agree that there is a point the spirit enters. Some moment between conception to birth where a body becomes a soul. An undefined line. Is the point to get as close to that line as possible? If there is even the remote chance that an abortion results in a gospel defined death; is it worth the risk?



Not for me.



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CougarClaw wrote:

According to my religious understanding, death is the permanent separation of the spirit from the mortal body--PERMANENT because an out of body experience is temporary and certainly not considered death, and MORTAL BODY, because separation from a physical body is not permanent, but separation from a mortal body is.



Now, operating from that religious understanding of what death is, I cannot possibly equate abortion to murder without defining something that the Church has never taken an official doctrinal stance on--when the spirit enters the body.



So, in my mind, abortion is not necessarily equal to murder, but it is a very serious sin to interfere with God's process for creating life on earth...one for which those who know better will certainly be held accountable unless they have sincerely repented of such a grevious sin.

I like this argument, made me think. Here's the flaw: I think we can agree that there is a point the spirit enters. Some moment between conception to birth where a body becomes a soul. An undefined line. Is the point to get as close to that line as possible? If there is even the remote chance that an abortion results in a gospel defined death; is it worth the risk?



Not for me.



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I don't see the flaw, because I actually agree with you. There is some moment when it happens, but we don't know when it is. It should not matter. As you say, the point is not to get close to the line, because it certainly isn't worth the risk of crossing it. I would also add that whether abortion results in a gospel defined death or not, interfering with the sacred life process for personal convenience is also a serious sin. I won't go around calling it murder, because I just don't know if that is true or not. But I also don't treat it as a light thing since it is interfering with God's plan of bringing His children to earth.

Obviously I don't claim to know when life begins or when the spirit enters the body, however I believe it happens well before birth. The way I have seen my children react to external stimuli while in utero leaves no doubt in my mind, that not only were my children alive in the womb, they were aware of certain things. They reacted to simple things like when I came home from work. Consistently, my wife told me that when I came home from work and started talking to her, my children's activity in the womb increased, kicking and moving around more. Now that my son is three months old, I see the same behavior, and have since the early days of his life after birth. There's no doubt that if they are able to recognize their parent's voice, and react to it, then they are alive.



Some pro-life people have said rather simplisticly, that if death occurs when the heart stops beating, then it should begin when it starts beating. I like that.

Great perspective Ungoy.



I wonder though if a spirit is bound to a growing baby, or perhaps if it stops by for some visits to kick the tires and see how things are coming along.

CougarClaw wrote:
Great perspective Ungoy.



I wonder though if a spirit is bound to a growing baby, or perhaps if it stops by for some visits to kick the tires and see how things are coming along.

I'd find it hard to believe that spirits just float willy-nilly back and forth between the veil. I think once the spirit enters the body, it's there until death.

Movement, by itself, is not enough to tell whether a spirit has entered or not. Muscles twitch as electronic stimulae from the brain tell them to do so. For lack of a better term, movement could be nothing more than a system check to make sure all systems are go. There could be many other explanations.



I am really not trying to justify abortion in any way, but rather clarify the doctrine that we have no idea when the spirit enters the body--for example, Christ tells the Nephites that he is coming into the world the next day. So, did His spirit not enter His body until right before His birth, or was that a pre-recorded message?



We have no idea, and it really doesn't matter. Messing with the Lord's process for human life on earth is serious business.

Schmoe wrote:

Great perspective Ungoy.



I wonder though if a spirit is bound to a growing baby, or perhaps if it stops by for some visits to kick the tires and see how things are coming along.

I'd find it hard to believe that spirits just float willy-nilly back and forth between the veil. I think once the spirit enters the body, it's there until death.

There really is no way of knowing right now. Both explanations are plausible.

I was thinking of Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost



Agreed we don't know.

scott715 wrote:
I was thinking of Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost



Agreed we don't know.

Somewhat related, we also have the Book of Mormon account of the Lord's voice coming to Nephi the night before He came into the world.