USF Discussion Thread

LOL. Data rules all!

mizzoucoug wrote:
LOL. Data rules all!

Data failed miserably tonight. It sometimes does. Data is mostly about averages and trends.



It will be interesting to see how the non data people did in the prediction game tonight.



The data people certainly did poorly.



The real irony tonight is that BYU won it at the free throw line - sort of. We scored about 8 more points from the FT line.



But, the data would predict that one thing even tonight. BYU, especially at home, gets to the line a ton more than their opponents. So even though they miss too many, they make more.



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Quick stats check from last night.



- BYU lost FG% battle by about 8 points.

- BYU went from having 9 turnovers to only committing 4 in the 2nd half. Exact opposite for USF. They committed 4 TOs in the first half, lost 9 in the second half. THAT is where the game was won. Reversal of turnovers.

- BYU also was 18+ on the boards and 15+(!!!!!!) on the offensive glass.

- BYU also MADE 8 more fts. Dons only got to the line 11 times all night. BYU shot 29 fts. Home cookin??? If BYU hits 75% of their FTs they win 76-63. Big difference, but it sure made for a dramatic ending!!!

Not mentioned in stats are momentum changers - the sequence where Austin drew the O charge, slammed down a missed shot, where Carlino stole back the ball on a 2-1 breakaway and then hit a major 3 pt. Shot and then Mika hit followup turnaround jumper sealed the deal. Key plays, at key moments, sealed the victory. otherwise teams were even and neutralized each other. KCs 4 missed FT will kill this team vs other able-bodied teams. He is a major liability at the FT line and Rose has to keep this in mind during substitution patterns in close games. He needs to improve ASAP so that he can be on the floor at all times and not be "the hack a Shack" tool.



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byucougar1 wrote:
KCs 4 missed FT will kill this team vs other able-bodied teams. He is a major liability at the FT line and Rose has to keep this in mind during substitution patterns in close games. He needs to improve ASAP so that he can be on the floor at all times and not be "the hack a Shack" tool.



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Glad there is someone else who notices the same liability. Otherwise KC is having a terrific year. Just get him out of games late!

BroncoBot wrote:

KCs 4 missed FT will kill this team vs other able-bodied teams. He is a major liability at the FT line and Rose has to keep this in mind during substitution patterns in close games. He needs to improve ASAP so that he can be on the floor at all times and not be "the hack a Shack" tool.



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Glad there is someone else who notices the same liability. Otherwise KC is having a terrific year. Just get him out of games late!

Over simplified. Tyler Haws and KC were both sucking at the line right up until the end. Ducking from the field as well. Tyler, for whatever physical or mental reason, was way off and that affected the shooting confidence of the entire team.



luckily, there is more to the game than just FT shooting. Haws did pass the ball away late, rather than let them trap and possibly foul him. There was nobody shooting well for him to pass to. I think Mika led the team in FT%.



You do not take KC out. He does too many positive things. You do keep the ball in the hands of guys like Haws, Halford, Winder, and in a pinch Carlino.



The biggest momentum changer and the biggest key to this win was fouling out their player. They were not the same after that. He fouled out because of Haws and Collins worth getting to the line over and over again. That is a big part of the BYU game. Draw fouls. Haws and KC are the ones drawing them.



It is too bad, however that Haws missed 3 and Collins worth missed 6 or so and that not one BYU player shot 70% last night. Rember, BYULV set that bar as mminimum for any player. None met it.

That's just dumb. I don't care if Haws had gone 0-8 to that point. I trust him to make them when it matters. Nobody else on the team inspires clutch FT shooting confidence. These kinds of conclusions are what you come to when you watch the box score instead of the game.

I struggle with pulling KC out late in close games for one primary reason: rebounding.



Guy is an animal on the boards a rebound can be just as clutch if not more than FTs. Besides, you take KC put and put in who? Winder, Halford? Suppose you could put Halford in but he can't rebound and he get pushed around on D. Winder, great defense and speed but doesn't solve the FT issue and still less of a rebounder than KC.



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I don't think KC needs to be pulled late. But he needs understand that he's not a good enough FT shooter for end of game situations. So that means it is incumbent upon him to get the ball to players who are. Namely, Tyler Haws.



In games that are three possessions or less with two minutes to go, Collinsworth needs to be looking immediately to get the ball OUT of his hands and INTO the hands of Tyler.



Everyone on the team should realize the ball should almost always be in Tyler's hands late in the game - especially in a close game with BYU in the lead.

SpiffCoug wrote:
I don't think KC needs to be pulled late. But he needs understand that he's not a good enough FT shooter for end of game situations. So that means it is incumbent upon him to get the ball to players who are. Namely, Tyler Haws.



In games that are three possessions or less with two minutes to go, Collinsworth needs to be looking immediately to get the ball OUT of his hands and INTO the hands of Tyler.



Everyone on the team should realize the ball should almost always be in Tyler's hands late in the game - especially in a close game with BYU in the lead.

This. And when Tyler gets it, hang on to it as long as possible, if a pass is necessary, Halford, Winder, or Carlino, and then get open immediately for a pass back.



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mizzoucoug wrote:
That's just dumb. I don't care if Haws had gone 0-8 to that point. I trust him to make them when it matters. Nobody else on the team inspires clutch FT shooting confidence. These kinds of conclusions are what you come to when you watch the box score instead of the game.

Fired up my DVR and went back and watched the last 15 minutes of the box score. Wait...game.



Momentum Changers needed. BYU down by about 5 with USF shooting 68% from the field and BYU shooting about 13%.



It has been noted that Carlino hit two big threes. Take note who drove and kicked or rebounded and kicked an assist to Carlino on both of those. KC. Then watch him drive and pull up for a 5 foot jumper and then a layup. Note that he got what would have been a 3rd assist for a three which Carlino made, but KC was fouled when he passes it. No shots. BYU got it out of bounds, though. Note that KC would have then had another assist for a wide open 3 by Haws - but Haws missed it. So, no, I would not take our FT liability out here even though he missed the and 1.



Then back and forth. Lots of plays by lots of players. Carlino cools off, forces some shots, gets stripped forcing into traffic. Gets fouled doing same. Makes 1 after missing 1. He was the weak link for that stretch.



it really helped BYU when USF guy went bench with 4 fouls and later when USF guy fouled out.



BYU up by 7 with about 2 minutes left after KC assists to MC for his other wide open three.



We see KC grab a rebound after Austin misses a layup. We see him grab a loose ball and get it out to Haws.



Here is what I would change about that last minute or so.



When Carlino gets that rebound on the left perimeter, he should have kept that outside and burned some clock and then set up Haws for a late shot. Instead he drove right to the rack and dished to the aforementioned KC who was fouled hard. Clock is stopped and KC misses both.



When Carlino holds onto the ball late in the shot clock and jacks up a long, contested 3 for a miss, I would have found Haws and let him shoot and try to draw a foul.



When Haws was trying to break the press and fed Austin across the stripe and Austin forced it to Collinsworth for the layup early in the clock and Collinsworth was hammered and crashed into the padding behind the backboard and missed both, I would slow it down and burn some clock and work for a TH shot late in the clock.



Note Collinsworth getting rebounds and loose balls and assists through all of this. I would not pull Collinsworth. I would ask Carlino and Haws why they were pushing the offense to KC in traffic where he was certain to get fouled instead of working down the clock.



I would smack KC on his last rebound for turning it over while trying to get it passed out front for a fast break.



MC, Austin,, and then KC all trying to force offense early in the clock instead of working the clock. I would change that.



Go watch the box score on your DVR....wait..game...and see what you observe.



This was not a case of KC hanging onto the ball and USF intentionally fouling him. This is a case of the two best free throw shooters on the team forcing the ball to KC in traffic early in the shot clock.



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Really weird game overall. If not for an unbelievable rebounding night, we would have lost. I have a hard time faulting Haws for missing 3 FTs; uncharacteristic for him, but he is typically as clutch as they come. Less than 50% FT shooting as a team is pathetic at best, amazing that we were able to overcome and win. Overall, I think this game helps the team down the road. Being able to win with defense and rebounding when the shots are not falling is a huge confidence boost. I like the way this team is developing an identity which was lacking early in the season.



Ps: yes Bibster, I don't think 70% averages is asking too much from NCAA div I players. Not that everyone will shoot this %, but they all should be able to.

Watch from about 2:40 left. Watch KC get the offensive rebound and rather than go back up with it, kick it straight out to MC for the wide open 3 that puts BYU up 65-60. I was glad KC was in. After the ensuing time-out, watch as USF gets the ball into their set and works it inside and KC moves back to help and strip the guy from behind. Six rebounds, 19 points, and 4 assists at that point.

Mike gets a bucket. Game Over. Wait USF nails a 3. MC jacks up long 3 miss - contested. MC forces into KC early in clock. KC misses both. Loose ball rebound at other end - Collinsworth. Hustle. 49 seconds left. 67-63. Glad he is in. Austin had to take pass to avoid 10 second backcourt call. He forces to KC underneath. Early. Hammered into wall. Missed both. 37 seconds left.



Clock stopped again.



Mika rebounds the miss. Kicks to Carlino. Intentionally fouled. Makes 1. Misses 1. 68-63 28 seconds.



Collinsworth rebounds at the other end. Tried to feed Carlino on the fast break. Turnover. Should not have forced it even though they would likely have fouled him intentionally if he did not pass immediately. BYU should not have been breaking. 23 seconds left.



USF misses layup. Rebound Mika. 16 seconds.



Mika passes quickly to Carlino at 14 seconds. Carlino passes the length of the court to Haws on the break open under the basket. Haws passes up layup. Dribbles it out. USF let's him dribble out the clock.



Fun finish.



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The fact that USF let Haws dribble out the clock is actually further proof that BYU players should know - and be instructed by BYU coaches - to get the ball in Haws' hands.



I bet USF would have fouled again if the ball had wound up in KC's hands instead of Haws'. Down five, with precious few seconds, and the ball in Tyler's hands means fouling and going down seven.

SpiffCoug wrote:
The fact that USF let Haws dribble out the clock is actually further proof that BYU players should know - and be instructed by BYU coaches - to get the ball in Haws' hands.



I bet USF would have fouled again if the ball had wound up in KC's hands instead of Haws'. Down five, with precious few seconds, and the ball in Tyler's hands means fouling and going down seven.

Yes. And, since Haws had just dribbled away from a totally uncontested layup opportunity it would have made them look bad. I wished that they had drawn it out for a few more foul shots so that the spread would widen and further justify my home court whining. ;)

Gunk wrote:
I struggle with pulling KC out late in close games for one primary reason: rebounding.



Guy is an animal on the boards a rebound can be just as clutch if not more than FTs. Besides, you take KC put and put in who? Winder, Halford? Suppose you could put Halford in but he can't rebound and he get pushed around on D. Winder, great defense and speed but doesn't solve the FT issue and still less of a rebounder than KC.



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BYU didn't need rebounds when KC missed his 4 FTs. All they needed were FTs to seal the game. I agree that he is a beast. But when you have the game in hand and know that it's "foul mode" get KC out and put anyone else in there.



... Sorry. I think that most of my KC ft rage is from the florida OT loss when KC is a freshman and missed what would have been a game winning FT. I don't know that I'll ever let that go.

Doesn't matter if you don't let it go. It may have been the largest stage for a miss and loss. But he has plenty of recent game losers and this near miss (pun intended) FT disaster.

BroncoBot wrote:

I struggle with pulling KC out late in close games for one primary reason: rebounding.



Guy is an animal on the boards a rebound can be just as clutch if not more than FTs. Besides, you take KC put and put in who? Winder, Halford? Suppose you could put Halford in but he can't rebound and he get pushed around on D. Winder, great defense and speed but doesn't solve the FT issue and still less of a rebounder than KC.



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BYU didn't need rebounds when KC missed his 4 FTs. All they needed were FTs to seal the game. I agree that he is a beast. But when you have the game in hand and know that it's "foul mode" get KC out and put anyone else in there.



... Sorry. I think that most of my KC ft rage is from the florida OT loss when KC is a freshman and missed what would have been a game winning FT. I don't know that I'll ever let that go.

Actually, based on the result, we did not need those 4 free throws or the ones missed by his teammates. It seems that we did need the rebound and kick out assist to wide open Carlino for the 3 that iced the game. Collinsworth is a poor free throw shooter. Don't let that keep you from enjoying everything else he does. The dude is getting All WCC consideration as a sophomore fresh off a mission.



He will continue to disappoint at the FT line. So will everyone on this team not named Haws, Halford, Winder, or Carlino. Even they will disappoint at times.



As explained earlier, Collinsworth was not dribbling around waiting to be fouled. I would sit the guys that tried to push for shots early in the clock by passing to Collinsworth in traffic.



Collinsworth, Mika, Austin, Sharp, Bartley, et al are all poor FT shooters. One of them needs to be on the floor.

oh per

Cougarbib wrote:



Actually, based on the result, we did not need those 4 free throws or the ones missed by his teammates. It seems that we did need the rebound and kick out assist to wide open Carlino for the 3 that iced the game. Collinsworth is a poor free throw shooter. Don't let that keep you from enjoying everything else he does. The dude is getting All WCC consideration as a sophomore fresh off a mission.



Collinsworth, Mika, Austin, Sharp, Bartley, et al are all poor FT shooters. One of them needs to be on the floor.

Perfect, let's wait until the result is a LOSS and then make adjustments. That game is more than likely a loss against ISU, Wichita state, Gonzaga if the same scenario plays out. Oh wait, similar scenarios DID play out.



And I don't know why Rose can't gameplan around getting the ball into decent FT shooters hands. You've pointed this out as well, but Carlino should not have given the ball to collinsworth with 1:30 on the clock. Just run the clock out (shot clock violation is better at that point in the game than Collinworth at the line with 30 seconds left on the shot clock) or get fouled or pass the ball to Haws.