BYU vs Gonzaga thread

My game ball goes to coach rose. He made some great tactical decisions before and during the game that put his players in a position to win a big a game. Then the players responded and took advantage of those opportunities.

SpiffCoug wrote:
My game ball goes to coach rose. He made some great tactical decisions before and during the game that put his players in a position to win a big a game. Then the players responded and took advantage of those opportunities.

Very true. Few got out coached by Rose.



Rose showed trust in his guys and they delivered.



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BroncoBot wrote:

FT shooting. I just can't get over it. We'd be up 10 still if these guys could shoot.

Yeah, but it doesn't really matter. right bib?



5-11??? 45%>???!??!!?? Ugh, good thing BYU is hitting about everything and getting the o-boards or they could be trailing right now.



Gonzaga 12-15. YEah, FTs don't matter.

It is really annoying when someone puts words in your mouth, pretends like you said something you did not say, and then calls you out on it. Seems like you want to pick a fight.



I have never said that free throws do not matter. What I did say is that free throws are just one of a dozen or more things that matter and thus it is foolish to act as if they are the only thing that matters.



I also said that BYU is not a horrible FT shooting team. They are not. They are usually right at the national median. I provided that data. I have also stated that Haws and Halford are the only two really good free throw shooters on the team and that Winder and MC are usually decent enough and everyone else is poor. I stand by that.



You have forgotten that shooters and FT shooters are streaky and gone off ad they are in a cold streak. Patience is a virtue. BYU ended up at 68.9% iirc. Just about their average. Just about the national median.



And BYU won. With average FT shooting at best. How did that happen? Home Court. They played solid D. Shot FG and 3 Point better. Out rebounded. More steals. Fewer turnovers.



BYULV once lamented that if BYU could average 70% we would have won a few key games. I pointed out that we already shot 69% and that averaging 1% higher would not likely result in those 5 extra makes coming right when you want them. Stand by that. But a perfectly time FT would have won some games as would a stop, rebound, 3 pointer, ref call, steal, turnover, eyc.



BYU took 28 FT shots last night. If BYU shot 70% vs what they did shoot - that is half a point. But you cannot make half a point. One more FT would have put BYU over 70%. Three more makes would have had them out shoot Zags. Ironically, Zags shot FTs better than normal last night - and lost.



I have also said that BYU shoots FT better at home. They usually do. Not last night. Just average. Do you think Tyler Haws only getting 2 free throws and missing 1 of 2 was a factor? Do you think Halford not even getting to the line was a factor? Luckily Winder was stellar and MC was decent and BYU hit their average without their two best FT shooters.



Anyway. If you want to take pot shots at what I said, take pot shots at what I actually said.

Wolverine wrote:

Bartley WTF! Have you made a FT all season?!

I refuse to get upset about missed ft's since we all understand completely that BYU is an average FT shooting team, but above average at home :roll: On a more serious note, solid half. Mika has been a beast and needs to continue to take the ball at Lurch and company. Can't let Pangos heat up. These first 4 minutes will be telling.

See prior post. Patience is a virtue. As usual. BYU ended up at its average - national median. Haws only got 2 attempts and missed 1 of 2. Halford got none. Two best FT shooters not in play - and BYU still hit their average.

mizzoucoug wrote:
Holy crap. Everytime this team gets up 5 or 6 they stop running an offense. Post up Haws or get Mika back in there to score. Carlino taking 3's off the pick and roll is not the way to extend a lead. Get to the hole. Oh, and Halford doesn't need anymore minutes. Sorry, that kid cannot shoot.

Halford was 2 of 4 tonight in a very few minutes. Played under control. Buckets came at key times. Vs SMC, he sealed it with free throws at the end. He has a role and no ego.



Do you really expect Winder to play 40 minutes? Nobody does. Zags even took out Pangos to give him a blow. Exactly who do you think should have been in to rest Winder.



The kid you claim cannot shoot, shot 50% which was only behind Winder and Mika iirc.

BroncoBot wrote:

Holy crap. Everytime this team gets up 5 or 6 they stop running an offense. Post up Haws or get Mika back in there to score. Carlino taking 3's off the pick and roll is not the way to extend a lead. Get to the hole. Oh, and Halford doesn't need anymore minutes. Sorry, that kid cannot shoot.

Starters at this point for me would be



1. MC

2. Winder

3. Haws

4. KC

5. Mika/Austin

Rose pulls a stroke of genius by starting Sharp instead of Mika which kept Mika out of foul trouble and seemed to spark the young pup coming off the bench and BY beats Gonzalez with Mika and Carlino coming off the bench - and you want to 2nd guess the starting line-up?

mizzoucoug wrote:
Only Haws and Winder get to touch the ball once this gets to FT's.

Notice that they tried to do just that and that Haws gets trapped, etc. And others try to force passes and turnovers and near turnovers. They had to add Carlino to the equation, and luckily after missing 1 of 2 the first trip, he hit both on the next trip.



In crunch time, 2 FT shooters are not enough. Carlino and / or Halford need to be part of the mix.

mizzoucoug wrote:
Big win. Just keep pretending that we're playing a ranked team and this team plays hard!

We played this same ranked team in Spokane and lost by 15. BYU is 1-1 vs ranked teams in Provo this year. We are 0-n vs ranked teams on the road unless you count Texas who was not ranked at the time. Just like football. If BYU wants to win big games - they need big teams to come to Provo. This is why big name teams will not come to Provo. They learned from Miami / Detmer.

Cougarbib wrote:

mizzoucoug wrote:
FT shooting. I just can't get over it. We'd be up 10 still if these guys could shoot.

Yeah, but it doesn't really matter. right bib?



5-11??? 45%>???!??!!?? Ugh, good thing BYU is hitting about everything and getting the o-boards or they could be trailing right now.



Gonzaga 12-15. YEah, FTs don't matter.

It is really annoying when someone puts words in your mouth, pretends like you said something you did not say, and then calls you out on it. Seems like you want to pick a fight.



I have never said that free throws do not matter. What I did say is that free throws are just one of a dozen or more things that matter and thus it is foolish to act as if they are the only thing that matters.



I also said that BYU is not a horrible FT shooting team. They are not. They are usually right at the national median. I provided that data. I have also stated that Haws and Halford are the only two really good free throw shooters on the team and that Winder and MC are usually decent enough and everyone else is poor. I stand by that.



You have forgotten that shooters and FT shooters are streaky and gone off ad they are in a cold streak. Patience is a virtue. BYU ended up at 68.9% iirc. Just about their average. Just about the national median.



And BYU won. With average FT shooting at best. How did that happen? Home Court. They played solid D. Shot FG and 3 Point better. Out rebounded. More steals. Fewer turnovers.



BYULV once lamented that if BYU could average 70% we would have won a few key games. I pointed out that we already shot 69% and that averaging 1% higher would not likely result in those 5 extra makes coming right when you want them. Stand by that. But a perfectly time FT would have won some games as would a stop, rebound, 3 pointer, ref call, steal, turnover, eyc.



BYU took 28 FT shots last night. If BYU shot 70% vs what they did shoot - that is half a point. But you cannot make half a point. One more FT would have put BYU over 70%. Three more makes would have had them out shoot Zags. Ironically, Zags shot FTs better than normal last night - and lost.



I have also said that BYU shoots FT better at home. They usually do. Not last night. Just average. Do you think Tyler Haws only getting 2 free throws and missing 1 of 2 was a factor? Do you think Halford not even getting to the line was a factor? Luckily Winder was stellar and MC was decent and BYU hit their average without their two best FT shooters.



Anyway. If you want to take pot shots at what I said, take pot shots at what I actually said.

Actually, to clarify my position, I think BYU is a poor FT shooting team. At the time we discussed this they were ranked around 220/330 teams (now somewhere around the middle). That is/was bad. Poor FT shooting has cost us numerous games where 1-2 makes gets us a win. Remove Haws from our FT numbers and our team avg is around 58-59% = pathetic; and that still includes Halford, winder and Carlino. It's a tall order to overcome that type of FT shooting. We have missed more than 10 FT/game on numerous occasions and that takes a lot to overcome. I still contend that any div 1 college player should/can be shooting around 70% and if they are not it is due to lack of effort, lack of coaching or injury. KC especially owes it to this team to improve his FT shooting; he is letting them down by going to the line so often and then missing so often.

BroncoBot wrote:
Take away big K from the equation and the zags missed ONE FREAKIN FT TONIGHT.

and lost anyway.



ironically, BYU did take K out of the game tonight. There is a good and bad with everything. Got him in found trouble and put him on the bench where he was no longer on the floor to miss even more free throws.



Zags shot above there average FT% last night - ironically because we got their 7 footer in foul trouble and the 7 foot freshman that replaced him made his free throws.

beauso79 wrote:

Oh wait, Carlino shot an airball From 12 feet toward the end --I'm so done with him. I'm un-friending him from Facebook and Twitter. And he is not my bestie anymore, ever. No way. :roll:



Send in the Clowns.

Man, take some Midol already

In support of C Rule, Carlino shot well under 40% as usual last night and Halford shot 50%.



There were a number of ill-advised shots taken last night including a MC Runner and 3s, Halford having too long to think about the 3 mentioned above, Collinsworth getting an extremely low kick out pass and trying to bring it up from the floor to shoot the 3. Nobody on this team should take a 3 unless in rhythm and flow.

Cougs_Rule wrote:

Halford shot 50% from the field last night, second best percentage on the team. I just don't get the blind, and many times baseless attacks made on this forum against players. I think sometimes people think that the only way to support a player you like is to tear down another. Sad commentary.



It was a great team win last night, and everyone contributed. It was interesting to note that although Sharp didn't score, he still made a contribution with his hustle. The commentators even said that he was one of the "best athletes in the conference ".

Well said. My pushback wasn't against a Carlino. I'm done with posters who have blind, baseless attacks as well ;-)



Bottom line, there were several shots and plays that could have clinched the game and didnt. Good news, there were finally some clutch free throws that did clinch the game.

Overall, a very solid (not to be confused with flawless) performance and one that makes BYU very relevant for the WCC conference. Now, BYU, down the Pilots and let's finish strong--especially since the coached FINALLY know who this team is and the many parts that can be moved around to best match up. Love, love, love the creativity and stratagem Rose and team are deploying!!!

Iowa. Thanks for taking a stand for the players. This overly emo nonsense is typical of fans of all teams but even more typical of the more vocal BYU fans. IMHO, this is because the fan expectations here are so out of synch with REALITY. And reality bites.



Fun game. Fun team. Fun season. Fun future.



All of my posts for this thread came at the very end due to my getting suspended until this morning for repeating a few too many facts too many times in support of our players and coaches. These player attacks make me ill.



If I were on the board, and worried about how recruits perceive BYU, I would worry about all the let's fire the coaches every year drama and all of the player attacks.



hopefully, recruits do not take it too seriously.

Cougarbib wrote:

Big win. Just keep pretending that we're playing a ranked team and this team plays hard!

We played this same ranked team in Spokane and lost by 15. BYU is 1-1 vs ranked teams in Provo this year. We are 0-n vs ranked teams on the road unless you count Texas who was not ranked at the time. Just like football. If BYU wants to win big games - they need big teams to come to Provo. This is why big name teams will not come to Provo. They learned from Miami / Detmer.

I don't think any of the major college basketball teams base their decision on playing BYU in Provo on a football game, let alone a football game played over 20 years ago. Do they weigh the risk/reward factor? I am sure that when Coach Rose gets into talks with some of the major players about doing a home and home, many come to the conclusion that the risk indeed outweighs the reward. That being said, when ranked teams of the likes of Baylor, Iowa State (and others) do find their way to Provo, BYU has to take advantage and win those games, which doesn't happen very often. Last night was the exception with regards to beating a ranked team at home. One that I hope becomes the norm in the future.

Halford may have shot 50% for the game but he took like 4 shots and went 0-2 from 3pt. Give him the same number of playing time/attempts as Carlino and I'll bet he'll have a lower shooting %, fewer assists, fewer rebounds, and likely the same amount of turnovers. I'm not saying Halford doesn't have his place on this team but against longer, more athletic guards, like with Pacific, he is totally overmatched. Sure he can hang with Pangos and Stockton but they are short and white. I think a lot "My" problem is I expected too much out of him and wanted to believe in the hype he was getting at the JC level and that it would have translated to the D1 level better than it has. Once again My Bad!!!



I think most of us may have had unrealistic expectations for this team but at the same time would not have expected us to lose to the likes of Utah, Pepperdine, LMU, Pacific, and Portland. I'm sorry but we are much better than that and without those losses I think there would be more optimism around here. I think if Rose would have inserted Winder into the starting lineup sooner we may have seen different results as he can be a catalyst for this team defensively. I've always liked Winder but when he starts to struggle he ends up burried on the bench for an extended period. The guy has helped us beat Gonzaga twice now and deserves more than what he's gotten so far as he seems to step up when it matters most. I wouldn't mind seeing Carlino start again but at the same time understand that may not be what he's best suited for on this team. I think it was apparent to all of us that the defense had to improve and with the changes Rose has made recently it seems to be happening.as. So I guess shame on me for being a "fan"atic and expecting to win every game. Heck why even be a fan if your supposed to temper your expectations and only accept reality. Final Four or bust baby!!!!! Go BYU



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Basketball isn't just about shooting percentage.



Carlino gets beat up for taking bad shots (understandably) but people completely forget the other aspects of his game. Currently, Carlino is:



- 2nd all-time at BYU in career steals average

- 2nd all-time at BYU in career assists average

- 5th all-time in the WCC in steals percentage

- 16th all-time in the WCC in assists

- 4th in the WCC in assists/game for 2014 season

- 1st in the WCC in steals/game for 2014 season (2nd year in a row leading the category)



Oh, and if Carlino's career ended right now, he'd be ranked 37th all-time in scoring at BYU ahead of such players as Terrell Lyday, Mark Handy and Keena Young. Assuming he gets 450 pts next season (lower than his current average), Carlino will finish his career in the Top 10 all-time at BYU; right there with Brandon Davies and well ahead of Lee Cummard and Kenneth Roberts.



Not a bad guy to have on the court.

Cougarbib wrote:
All of my posts for this thread came at the very end due to my getting suspended until this morning for repeating a few too many facts too many times in support of our players and coaches. These player attacks make me ill.

I wouldn't normally discuss this in public, but since you brought it up and misrepresented the facts, I thought I should clear this up.



You were given a short timeout due to your inability to allow conversation to occur naturally and organically on this site. The decision was not made by me, but by the leadership council, of which a member has reached out to you to help explain and correct the issue.



I for one look forward to your insights and presence on this site, but it will only be if you can follow the guidelines for posting as explained to you by the leadership council. Any further comments on that matter should be directed directly to the leadership council member that contacted you, any posted here in this topic will be deleted. Thanks.

Halford and Winder's numbers for last night:



Halford -

10 min; 4 pts; 1 assist; 3 rebounds (Nice!); 1 Turnover; 50% FG on 2-4 shooting; 0% 3P on 0-2 shooting; 0 fouls



Winder -

26 min; 17 pts; 1 assist; 3 rebounds; 2 turnovers; 75% FG on 3-4 shooting; 50% 3p on 1-2 shooting; 100% FT on 10-10 shooting; 3 fouls



Both players provided quality minutes and key buckets at key times, but I don't think there should be any question as to who the better player was last night. Keep in mind Winder was also basically charged with guarding Pangos when on the court. Pangos was held to 33% shooting on the night and kept to 13 pts. Half of Pangos' points came from the line. More impressive, Pangos only had 3 assists and committed 2 turnovers.



And just because I know some will be interested, here are Carlino's numbers for the night:



Carlino -

31 min; 15 pts; 6 assists; 4 rebounds; 3 steals; 2 turnovers; 38% FG on 5-13 shooting; 33% 3P on 2-6 shooting; 75% FT on 3-4 shooting; 1 foul



Very solid game by Carlino. The 3 steals were key as were the assists. As I've said multiple times in the past, if Carlino just took 2 - 3 fewer three point shots a game, his shooting percentage would be significantly higher and the criticism against him would be unfounded.

Wolverine wrote:

mizzoucoug wrote:
Big win. Just keep pretending that we're playing a ranked team and this team plays hard!

We played this same ranked team in Spokane and lost by 15. BYU is 1-1 vs ranked teams in Provo this year. We are 0-n vs ranked teams on the road unless you count Texas who was not ranked at the time. Just like football. If BYU wants to win big games - they need big teams to come to Provo. This is why big name teams will not come to Provo. They learned from Miami / Detmer.

I don't think any of the major college basketball teams base their decision on playing BYU in Provo on a football game, let alone a football game played over 20 years ago. Do they weigh the risk/reward factor? I am sure that when Coach Rose gets into talks with some of the major players about doing a home and home, many come to the conclusion that the risk indeed outweighs the reward. That being said, when ranked teams of the likes of Baylor, Iowa State (and others) do find their way to Provo, BYU has to take advantage and win those games, which doesn't happen very often. Last night was the exception with regards to beating a ranked team at home. One that I hope becomes the norm in the future.

A lot of them do base the decision on altitude and travel wear and tear. Altitude is what had Miami bent over gasping in the 4th quarter and Pangs gasping the other night. The nice thing about being in a conference is that the Zags and Gaels have to come here every year. The study Hawk posted a link to listed altitude as one of the major factors giving certain teams home advantage.

What ever the issues may be, we have a lot better chance of beating teams in Provo than anywhere else. We lost to Zags, Waves, Lions, Tigers, and Pilots on the road. Assuming a win Saturday, we will have besten all of them in Provo. We only lost 1 game in Provo - and it was down to the wire.



We do not do well in conference tournaments or NCAA - away from Provo and the altitude and our fans.



It was such a killer to play MWC tournament at UNLV.



I am worried about playing several of these teams we split with in Las Vegas in March. Saint Mary's too. Obviously, we are capable of beating every team in the conference. We will have beaten every team in the conference barring a meltdown vs Pilots.



I am nervous that home court may be affecting us more than it affects a few of them this season. Maybe every season - altitude and fans are huge in Provo.



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Gunk wrote:
Halford and Winder's numbers for last night:



Halford -

10 min; 4 pts; 1 assist; 3 rebounds (Nice!); 1 Turnover; 50% FG on 2-4 shooting; 0% 3P on 0-2 shooting; 0 fouls



Winder -

26 min; 17 pts; 1 assist; 3 rebounds; 2 turnovers; 75% FG on 3-4 shooting; 50% 3p on 1-2 shooting; 100% FT on 10-10 shooting; 3 fouls



Both players provided quality minutes and key buckets at key times, but I don't think there should be any question as to who the better player was last night. Keep in mind Winder was also basically charged with guarding Pangos when on the court. Pangos was held to 33% shooting on the night and kept to 13 pts. Half of Pangos' points came from the line. More impressive, Pangos only had 3 assists and committed 2 turnovers.



And just because I know some will be interested, here are Carlino's numbers for the night:



Carlino -

31 min; 15 pts; 6 assists; 4 rebounds; 3 steals; 2 turnovers; 38% FG on 5-13 shooting; 33% 3P on 2-6 shooting; 75% FT on 3-4 shooting; 1 foul



Very solid game by Carlino. The 3 steals were key as were the assists. As I've said multiple times in the past, if Carlino just took 2 - 3 fewer three point shots a game, his shooting percentage would be significantly higher and the criticism against him would be unfounded.

Agree re Carlino. Also 1 less runner or out of control layup. Maybe 1 or 2 less passes forced into traffic. Get FT% above 75. I think he would be all WCC. Especially if the fewer shots translated into nice passes that became assists. Carlino nails 3s taken in the flow. He needs to be rested a bit as well to avoid shots coming up short.



Winder was outstanding last night. Halford made a solid contribution.



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Wolverine wrote:

mizzoucoug wrote:
Big win. Just keep pretending that we're playing a ranked team and this team plays hard!

We played this same ranked team in Spokane and lost by 15. BYU is 1-1 vs ranked teams in Provo this year. We are 0-n vs ranked teams on the road unless you count Texas who was not ranked at the time. Just like football. If BYU wants to win big games - they need big teams to come to Provo. This is why big name teams will not come to Provo. They learned from Miami / Detmer.

I don't think any of the major college basketball teams base their decision on playing BYU in Provo on a football game, let alone a football game played over 20 years ago. Do they weigh the risk/reward factor? I am sure that when Coach Rose gets into talks with some of the major players about doing a home and home, many come to the conclusion that the risk indeed outweighs the reward. That being said, when ranked teams of the likes of Baylor, Iowa State (and others) do find their way to Provo, BYU has to take advantage and win those games, which doesn't happen very often. Last night was the exception with regards to beating a ranked team at home. One that I hope becomes the norm in the future.

It's just a dumb post. Pay it no heed.