Controversial Topic: Which will cause more members to leave?

Ddawg wrote:

So is informal probation different from disfellowship?

It sounds like "informal probation" is lesser than being disfellowshipped. It sounds more like a formal warning - a "shot across the bow" so to speak. Warning that serious consequences (ex-communication) is on the table if the detrimental behavior is not stopped. It sounds like Church authorities are trying to work with this person - giving fair warning about their harmful conduct.



The next step of course is - "Double Secret Probation."



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0cF2piwjYQ

And after that, dodecatuple secret probation.



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This was a good comment over on sltrib about the ordain women stuff.. Great comment!! From one of you??



think the real problem to this dialogue is the utter lack of faith. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints isn't an institution looking for profit, gaining power, and subjecting women. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. When will the members remember who really is running the show and calling the shots. Any leader, whether male or female, is directed to seek revelation through the Holy Ghost. Therefore, any decision in the church, for the church, or of the church is from God. Is the world upset with Jesus because he was a man? Is God a sexist because He sent His son to atone for the world instead of a daughter?



I have held position of leadership in the church and I have seen how amazingly and importantly the council of women are. The Relief Society President has an immense responsibility and thus an immense influence in what happens for its members, what activities happen, how meetings are ran, and how the missionary work moves forward. Other women have just as much influence too. But of course my personal experience doesn't matter... right? I am lying... right? I am man, so how do I know... right?



It is offensive to me, having a wife who wants to stay home and raise our four children, who doesn't seek after or want the priesthood, and who believes in this church, that so many are willing to call her out as one who isn't "smart", or is "suppressed" or isn't equal. Do people know what the priesthood even is? Forget calling it the power and authority of the church. The priesthood is a calling to serve others. Everything a man does with the priesthood is to serve his fellow beings, to bless them, work for them, listen to them, carrying their burdens. The greater the leadership position in the church the more responsibility to forget yourself and serve others. Christ himself said, " he that is cheif among you, let him be your servant." (Matt 20:26-28). So in my mind it sounds like this: it is unfair that men get to serve others more than women. We all know that isn't true. Women already, by their kind and loving spirits, already serve and care for way more people than men. Women are great examples that men need to exemplify.



If someone has doubts or issues with the leadership in the church, or why women don't "hold" the priesthood, or anything else, they can tap into a resource unadulterated and incorruptible. They can speak directly to the source of all truth. If they want answers, should they not seek to council with God instead of with lawyers, with media, with the printing press, and with others who have similar doubts.



It these two individuals who proclaim to love the church really did love the church and its members, why are they seeking to be the cause of so much contention. It is one thing to question authority. It is one thing to doubt doctrine. It is one thing to struggle with understanding about the priesthood. But it is another to confide these struggles to the mass media and all of the world to get them on your side to try and fight some kind of holy war with an arsenal of public opinion, cultural pressures, and white lies. The Kingdom of God will move forward as a stone cut out of a mountain. God is no respecter of persons. He loves his daughters and wants the best for them. He loves his sons and wants the best for them. And God know that the only way for His sons to be their best selves is to have callings which cause them to serve others and to hold the priesthood.

Scott, I'd like to thank whoever this was. I wish I was that eloquent. This is what I've been trying to say.



This and all of these movements trace to selfishness as in King Noah rather than love and service as in King Benjamin.

Yes it hits the bullseye. I wish I could take credit for it. This topic has not Ben an issue here but I think I'll send it to the stake president.



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I got into a discussion with a sister who feels unequal and supports the OW movement. She started off saying how she's been a life long member baptized at 8.



She was presenting opinionated statements as fact, such as the Church spokespeople being dishonest in their report of what happened at Temple Square during their protest last April (She didn't go into specifics as to how). She indicated that she feels like the Church lies to her when they say her voice is valued, and that everything that is happening is a slap in the face, after President Uchtdorf's quote which became a rallying cry for these women, "There is room for you here". She finished her thought by saying:



"No one has to agree with me, but I do ask that you all consider that faith comes in different forms and through different routes, and although I put my faith in God wholeheartedly, I struggle greatly with putting that same faith in my fellow men, even those who are called to lead His church."



I think with many of these feminists, that their issue is not the Priesthood, it's men. They cannot stand the thought of having men stand above them in authority. I believe this is why many of them are also demanding additional doctrine regarding Heavenly Mother. The issue for many seems to be their complete inability to trust men in any capacity.



I responded to her by stating the following (Warning personal experiences and childhood woes lie ahead):



"I meant no offense by anything I've said. I too have been raised in the Church and baptized at 8. I served a mission, and am married in the temple to my wonderful wife. At 31, I have seen too many blessings in my life from the Gospel and the Church. The Church and the leaders of my local ward and stake in my youth kept me going during a particularly difficult time in my life. I had an extremely hard childhood filled with baseless ridicule, and hate spewed toward me by those whom I should have been able to call friends. I spent my early school years from Elementary School until High School friendless.



I had random people I didn't even know try to pummel me after school, and then pick on and threaten my younger brother simply because he was my brother. I was ridiculed in scouts. One day while walking home from a troop meeting, other kids started hitting me with rocks they were throwing at me. These people doing these things to me were the same young men and young women who I went to Primary, Sunday School and Priesthood meetings with. The same people who should have been showing Christlike love to me instead were trampling me under foot. My family, my Church leaders, and the Lord were the only people I could go to. I had several loving Bishops over the years who counseled with me, and helped me continue to foster and grow a testimony in the face of extreme adversity.



I don't share this to gain sympathy, or to show how bad I had things. I only share it to show that I too know how it feels to be hated and reviled by people of both genders. I know what it feels like to be in a room full of people, and to feel totally and completely alone. I know how it feels to break down in tears in my bedroom pleading with God for better times. I didn't blame the Church or God for my adversities. I didn't know how my life would progress, but I trusted my leaders, and I trusted the Lord. 15-20 years later, I am grateful I did. Those difficult times were part of my trial by fire, and my refining process. I came out of it stronger, and better. I'm a better husband and father today because of those experiences. I have complete trust in God and in the leaders of the Church, because I built a foundation on the Gospel, Christ, and his Church. Just as the scriptures say, I did not fall.



Following the guidance and council of the Church leaders both local and General Authorities has brought innumerable blessings into my life. I would be ungrateful if I turned on them now. Sometimes we may be hurt, we may feel there is no end to torment, but the Lord knows all. He just asks us to be faithful. Part of that faith is to trust those whom he has called to lead his Church. Trust that they receive guidance and revelation from Him directly. Trust that He is all-knowing and that His plans and designs are beyond our comprehension, and his ways are not always our ways. Trusting that whatever trials we encounter, we know that they are for our good, and will help us be stronger. Not always in ways we think.



I apologize if I came across as harsh in my defense of the Church Leaders. I feel it a special calling in my life to stand with them. In my patriarchal blessing, I was specifically told, by God Himself I believe, to stand and speak in defense of those we call Prophets, Seers and Revelators. For me there is no other choice. I've been told that as I stand with them, and follow their council and trust in God, I will be blessed. I've seen the realization of many of those blessings."

Amen

I have to admit that I've hit my limit on both of these topics. But those involved in the “OW movement” have officially pushed me over the edge. I’m tired of those women in my ward who refuse (or beg out of) callings, refuse to speak in sacrament meetings, and refuse to support the boy scout program lecture me on how they are “entitled” to receive the priesthood. I’m tired of the OW people using the logical fallacy that in order to treat people equally we must treat them the same. I’m tired of the crazy OW person running to the New York Times and beating a path to any and every public appearance opportunity cry about how she cannot attend her own hearing even though the letter to her clearly states that she can move the date to a more convenient time for her if she chooses. At the beginning of the process, I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, that she was honestly seeking the will of the Lord. Now I am convinced that she sees herself as the prophet of the OW movement. Her discussions have graphical representations of her leading the women of the church through this process.

I now see her as George P. Lee the second. George P. Lee was the native American General Authority who left the church because he believed that the church was not done enough for his “Lamanite Brotheren” He made the statement at his excommunication to the effect of ”I had to choose in my heart whether to follow God, or Follow the Brethren, and I chose to follow God.” The leader of the OW movement has now showed to me unequivocally that she doesn’t want to understand the will of God. Rather she believes that she (and an extremely overwhelming minority of the church members, and a significant number of vocal people who don’t even believe in the church anyway) know the will of God in this matter and refuse to stop screaming and shouting until she gets her way. She has passed the role of 16 year old lobbying for a cool first car and gone straight to the role of 3 year old melting down at Target until she gets her new toy. Undoubtedly my opinion on this matter will offend some, and I know that I should feel bad about that. But at this point all I can muster is acknowledging that I should feel bad about that.

ABYUFAN wrote:
I have to admit that I've hit my limit on both of these topics. But those involved in the “OW movement” have officially pushed me over the edge. I’m tired of those women in my ward who refuse (or beg out of) callings, refuse to speak in sacrament meetings, and refuse to support the boy scout program lecture me on how they are “entitled” to receive the priesthood. I’m tired of the OW people using the logical fallacy that in order to treat people equally we must treat them the same. I’m tired of the crazy OW person running to the New York Times and beating a path to any and every public appearance opportunity cry about how she cannot attend her own hearing even though the letter to her clearly states that she can move the date to a more convenient time for her if she chooses. At the beginning of the process, I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, that she was honestly seeking the will of the Lord. Now I am convinced that she sees herself as the prophet of the OW movement. Her discussions have graphical representations of her leading the women of the church through this process.

I now see her as George P. Lee the second. George P. Lee was the native American General Authority who left the church because he believed that the church was not done enough for his “Lamanite Brotheren” He made the statement at his excommunication to the effect of ”I had to choose in my heart whether to follow God, or Follow the Brethren, and I chose to follow God.” The leader of the OW movement has now showed to me unequivocally that she doesn’t want to understand the will of God. Rather she believes that she (and an extremely overwhelming minority of the church members, and a significant number of vocal people who don’t even believe in the church anyway) know the will of God in this matter and refuse to stop screaming and shouting until she gets her way. She has passed the role of 16 year old lobbying for a cool first car and gone straight to the role of 3 year old melting down at Target until she gets her new toy. Undoubtedly my opinion on this matter will offend some, and I know that I should feel bad about that. But at this point all I can muster is acknowledging that I should feel bad about that.

Well stated. Ironically, by lobbying the brethren--men--the OW movement is unwittingly declaring that they think they are second level--that they need these men to elevate them. They don't. They don't need to be ordained to exercise God's authority to do His will, whether as a missionary, a temple worker, a teacher, a mother, or a disciple.

Ungoy, thank you for having the courage to share that. You're not the only one that's had these experiences. It is very painful physically, spiritually, mentally and emotionally to be bullied. I admire you for your striving to the degree you have. What a great contrast between you and these complainers. You appear to have built on the rock of the gospel. So have the complainers, it's just that their rocks are very tiny and we call it sand.



Abyufan, you nailed it. I wonder how long they will try to embarrass the Lord's anointed and the rest of us with their "logic"? It puts me in mind of Sonia Johnson (I believe that was her name.). If I remember she was one of the chainers and had the attention of the other women's rights people. She obviously identified more with them than the church. I haven't heard of her since then. She's faded into obscurity.

In my opinion, Kate Kelly is so far off the path that not only does she not want to return to it, she's unable to even see where she once stood. She's actively trying to swim through the river of filth to get to the Great and Spacious Building all the while spitting darts back towards those she left behind.



She's gone so far off the deep end, that she seems to be changing the very god she prays to and believes in. In a recent article she wrote for The Guardian, she specifically states, referencing those misled sisters who bolster her cause and lift her up in pride "Because of them, I can more clearly see the face of God, and She is beautiful."



(article linked merely for reference below)



http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/16/mormon-woman-excommunication-lds-church-ordination" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Last I checked, we have a Heavenly Mother, but she is not God. God is and always has and will be God the Father, Elohim.



Again, as OW's mission statement reads "God is male and female, father and mother, and all of us can progress to be like them someday." These women, and Kate Kelly are not just pandering and aspiring to the priesthood, she's trying to fundamentally change the doctrine, belief and understanding of who God is. One thing is for sure. The god that Kate Kelly and her followers are aspiring to be like is not my God. Their god is not Elohim, or Jehovah. Neither is their god my Heavenly Mother, as she is also one in purpose with God, and thus wouldn't seek to supplant his doctrine.



Their god is more akin to the golden calf of the children of Israel, and of Baal, or any of the other false gods. In essence, their god is Satan, as they are following his prodding and believing his flattery as did Korihor. She's rehearsed her rhetoric so much, that she truly believes what she says, and has forgotten the true source of knowledge.



Lastly, even if women were extended the Priesthood, Kate Kelly and her followers would be unworthy to receive it, simply based on their lack of understanding of the Priesthood and their methods for obtaining it.



Doctrine and Covenants 121:34-38:

34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?



35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—



36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.



37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.



38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

The fact that they are trying to shame the Church into giving into them, exercising control and compulsion in issuing their demands, they have sinned. They fail to understand that the Priesthood is not and has not been the right of anyone to bear except for God and Jesus Christ themselves, whose Priesthood it is. They confer it upon those they select and call, and none other. Anyone comparing Priesthood authority to basic civil rights are gravely mistaken. The Priesthood is not something so trivial.

I'm working on a talk for tomorrow. Same section



41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;



42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—



43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;



44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.



And then the promise:

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.



We will have the Holy Ghost with us. In the end it leads to exaltation with our families.

scott715 wrote:
I'm working on a talk for tomorrow. Same section



41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;



42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—



43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;



44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.



And then the promise:

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.



We will have the Holy Ghost with us. In the end it leads to exaltation with our families.

I haven't looked it up in a while, but there is a scripture in the D&C where it states the Holy Ghost will tell you all things which are expedient for you. In other words, the scriptures and talks from our leaders tell us in general the things we need to do, but the Holy Ghost can pinpoint the exact things you need to work on right now. What a great priviledge. Hopefully, we are not living beneath it.

With today's events, I have been thinking about the sifting process in the church. I remember as a teenager when President Hinckley gave his "B's" talk, the most controversial thing was his teaching on the appropriate number of earrings for girls to wear. The discussion in seminary the following day was interesting as the girls either defended or expressed frustration at the edict. I remember wondering how such a simple call from a prophet would be such a stumbling block. Oh to only have to worry about that simple thing and not the issues making headlines today.



I found this quote from Elder Elray Christiansen from 1971.

This is a time of sifting, a time when, more than ever in the history of the modern world, the adversary and his followers have shown themselves to be enemies of God. Yet as we heard our prophet and president say this morning, we need not fear the fiery darts of the adversary, because each of us has the power to avoid becoming entangled in sin more definitely than ever before. The time has come for each member of the Church to keep close to the Lord, to be steadfast by sustaining and upholding and following the counsel of his divinely appointed servants, avoiding, as the Book of Mormon says, the vainness, the frailties, and the foolishness of men. We must purify our lives and sanctify our homes.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/12/the-sifting?lang=eng



I know it is going to get harder but I know which side of the line I want to be on. I just am sad with those who are letting this take them away.