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TCG Makes National News

by jvquarterback · 5/27/2014

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SpiffCoug
Mars wrote:


Heroine. Spice. Crack. Meth. Try going on medical calls involving those multiple times every week of your life. Then come talk to me about your theories about drugs.

Well, if we didn't have police and if we didn't outlaw them and didn't require a doctor (really just a glorified, authorized drug dealer) to write a prescription these users would be able to self-medicate themselves to the proper dosage and wouldn't have to steal and threaten violence to get their hit and the long trail of violence would slowly dissipate.
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BroncoBot
Mars wrote:


Heroine. Spice. Crack. Meth. Try going on medical calls involving those multiple times every week of your life. Then come talk to me about your theories about drugs.

And yet, they are still illegal and you are still getting calls about them multiple times a week. I simply don't believe that you're going to be seeing more calls about these drugs if they were legal tomorrow. Similarly, I don't believe our communities will be seeing LESS violence if we make guns ILLEGAL tomorrow. We've gotten so caught up in trying to legislate our way out of social problems. Unfortunately our whole moral fabric is being washed away by the wave of immorality and diminished family values.



Because something is legal doesn't necessarily make it right

Because something is illegal doesn't necessarily make it wrong



Strong families, religious ties, and communities are far more important than any classification of drugs into legal or illegal categories, and more important than any legislation for that matter. Unfortunately, "The Family a Proclamation to the World" is becoming a more and more radical idea each day.
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Mars
BroncoBot wrote:
[Drugs] are still illegal and you are still getting calls about them multiple times a week. I simply don't believe that you're going to be seeing more calls about these drugs if they were legal tomorrow...



Similarly, I don't believe our communities will be seeing LESS violence if we make guns ILLEGAL tomorrow...



Because something is illegal doesn't necessarily make it wrong.

Some of what you say makes sense (no, pot in Colorado isn't good for Mormons now that it's legal), but you are jumping around in your logic instead of sticking to the topics of violence and illegal drug use. Drugs aren't just bad because they are illegal. Drugs aren't used as a means of private safety and a deterrent to violence, like citizens owning guns. They are just one of the many means out there of self-destruction (such as alcohol, as previously mentioned).



That being said, Spice WAS actually less dangerous back when it was legal, and it's worse now that the production is less mainstream and the ingredients are more randomized. So there is some merit to that line of thought. But no matter how far back you draw the line legally, there will always be an even further (unsafe) way of crossing it and those out there willing to do so.
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Cougarfan87
I don't buy the libertarian argument that legalizing drugs would somehow reduce crime. They love to point to prohibition and the rise of organized crime. However, organized crime existed both before and after prohibition. Alcohol was just the currency of their trade. If it wasn't drugs, it would be something else because criminals are not in it because they are so in love with a certain product that they are willing to break the law to peddle it. Criminals will always seek short cuts to make money. Changing the currency won't change criminals. They'll simply move on to something else--human trafficking, child pornography, or any other money making scheme. It would be a huge mistake to legalize drugs.



However, I would not oppose changing the sentencing standards to require a treatment program for users rather than jail time. Dealers should still get locked up.
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jvquarterback
Cougarfan87 wrote:
However, I would not oppose changing the sentencing standards to require a treatment program for users rather than jail time. Dealers should still get locked up.


As previously mentioned I deal (or at least facilitate the sale of) drugs daily. Why aren't you sending me to jail just like you are all the other dealers?



If anyone argues drug legalization/decriminalization doesn't lower use they are either a liar or naive to the data for the decriminalization of all drugs (that's right including meth, crack, and heroin) in Portugal, where drug use has dropped by 50% and drug related violence has dropped precipitously as well.
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Mars
Cougarfan87 wrote:
I would not oppose changing the sentencing standards to require a treatment program for users rather than jail time. Dealers should still get locked up.

Although, interestingly enough, the book Freakanomics makes the opposite argument, based on an economic (supply and demand) viewpoint alone (IE- Punishing SUPPLIERS results in less competition, greater payout, more reason to sell illegal drugs, while punishing BUYERS only makes for more competition, less payout, and less reason to sell illegal drugs).
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SpiffCoug
jvquarterback wrote:
However, I would not oppose changing the sentencing standards to require a treatment program for users rather than jail time. Dealers should still get locked up.


As previously mentioned I deal (or at least facilitate the sale of) drugs pretty daily. Why aren't you sending me to jail just like you are all the other dealers?



If anyone argues drug legalization/decriminalization doesn't lower use they are either a liar or naive to the data for the decriminalization of all drugs (that's right including meth and heroin) in Portugal, where drug use has dropped by 50% and drug related violence has dropped precipitously as well.

Because you're not a drug dealer. You are a doctor. And from what I've gathered from you posts, not a a very good one. You take pride in killing your patients because of how aggressive you like to be with your treatments and drug dosages. And you apparently don't consider yourself anything better than a common crack dealer.



I guess that makes sense, because apparently you don't see much difference between what you do in your licensed office and the coke dealer on the corner.
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jvquarterback
SpiffCoug wrote:

Because you're not a drug dealer. You are a doctor.


I'm both. And I'm happy to provide both services.


SpiffCoug wrote:
I guess that makes sense, because apparently you don't see much difference between what you do in your licensed office and the coke dealer on the corner.


I like to think I give better advice than a dealer on the street, though if you can buy a similar product from one of my competitors for less than I charge, I think you should go for it. I don't need to use government to obtain a monopoly in the drug trade I participate in.
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SpiffCoug
Can you boardmail me your real name so that I know to never seek your medical advice or services? I'm serious, I want NOTHING to do with a doctor who would actually suggest I buy my drugs illegally - even from the street corner if necessary.



Unreal.
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jvquarterback
SpiffCoug wrote:
Can you boardmail me your real name so that I know to never seek your medical advice or services? I'm serious, I want NOTHING to do with a doctor who would actually suggest I buy my drugs illegally - even from the street corner if necessary.



Unreal.


Actually I can't tell my patients to purchase from unlicensed competitors (on pain of losing my license) so you are safe from all us nasty people who believe in a free market for pain medications. Just don't complain when you're dropping $150 every other week for your cancer pain meds when on the free market they would cost $2. And if you decide to use marijuana to improve your appetite during chemotherapy I'm not going turn you in if you refuse to buy the megace or marinol I recommended at 100x the street price of marijauna. And I won't lie to you and tell you it is any less safe than the alternatives.



Now I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for not understanding previous posts where I said I treat to higher doses than other doctors in my specialty because it is a pretty nuanced argument even for my colleagues, but it really comes down to the same thing for both how I treat cancer and how I prescribe and recommend pain medication: I am not God and I don't know what you feel or what you believe. I give patients options and my recommendation and I don't judge them or their methods of dealing with pain, grief and the prospect of death. I'm sorry to disappoint you with my lack of moral outrage for what my patients choose to do that you don't approve of.
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Cougarfan87
Mars wrote:
I would not oppose changing the sentencing standards to require a treatment program for users rather than jail time. Dealers should still get locked up.

Although, interestingly enough, the book Freakanomics makes the opposite argument, based on an economic (supply and demand) viewpoint alone (IE- Punishing SUPPLIERS results in less competition, greater payout, more reason to sell illegal drugs, while punishing BUYERS only makes for more competition, less payout, and less reason to sell illegal drugs).


I guess the hope would be that by putting them through a treatment plan and educating the masses you would be reducing the demand. But I know that people don't really stop taking drugs until they hit rock bottom. The quicker they can get there, the faster they can turn it around.
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Cougarfan87
Oh, and there is a huge difference between doctors and drug dealers. Doctors actually look at the source and cause of illness and prescribe drugs to cure the disease, if possible, or lessen the symptoms. A drug dealer just gives you whatever you want for money. It is surprising that some cannot make that very important distinction concerning why one of those activities is legal while the other is not.
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Guest
I'm very concerned that some people actually believe that drugs developed for illicit street trade are as pure and safe as those created in medical laboratories. Even those places that have legalized soft drugs still have serious problems with illegal versions of the legalized drugs that have been enhances to increase addictivity and potency. A street corner drug could have who knows what mixed in with it.
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SpiffCoug
Cougarfan87 wrote:
Oh, and there is a huge difference between doctors and drug dealers. Doctors actually look at the source and cause of illness and prescribe drugs to cure the disease, if possible, or lessen the symptoms. A drug dealer just gives you whatever you want for money. It is surprising that some cannot make that very important distinction concerning why one of those activities is legal while the other is not.

NOt that big of a difference according to some on the board.
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BoiseBYU
Equally disturbing to me is the thought by some that legalization will reduce the harm caused by these substances. I do no think this will be so. We legalized alcohol and the harm caused from that substance is staggering in terms of destroyed lives and destroyed families. Legalizing this substance did NOT moderate usage or make things better and we as individuals, as families, and as taxpayers pay for the abuse of that substance. I am not advocating a return to prohibition, because it was clear that when such a large part of the population is willing to break the law, trying to enforce the law was fruitless. But we should quit thinking legalizing these substances will make things better. Have any of you seen a or tried dealing with a meth addict? Advocating the legalization of a substance like this is unconscionable to my mind.



I am also tried of people misstating the record on Portugal. Actually, since Portugal decriminalized drugs in that country, drug usage of cocaine, ecstasy and heroin have increased with attendant health consequence. There have been some apparent benefits too like a reducation of teen usage and less HIV infections from tainted needles, but to suggest that things in Portugal are all one raging success is false.



Not every drug is equaly dangerous and trying to loop them all together is unhelpful. I do not think there is one size fits all solution, and i certainly do not think that passing laws will cure this problem, but I do believe that advocating decriminalizing or legalizing drug usage would be a catastrophic mistake.
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jvquarterback
BoiseBYU wrote:
I am also tried of people misstating the record on Portugal. Actually, since Portugal decriminalized drugs in that country, drug usage of cocaine, ecstasy and heroin have increased with attendant health consequence.


IV drug use (the most dangerous kind of drug use) in Portugal dropped from 3.5/1000 of the population at the time of decriminalization to 2/1000 six years later. Add into the data the fact that due to decriminalization people were much more likely to admit drug use 6 years later and you see an enormous drop in IV drug use since decriminalization in Portugal.



Similarly, while lifetime use levels have increased minimally in Portugal (likely due to people being more honest after drugs were decriminalized) both new users, and use among 15-16 year olds have decreased.
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jvquarterback
Cougarfan87 wrote:
Oh, and there is a huge difference between doctors and drug dealers. Doctors actually look at the source and cause of illness and prescribe drugs to cure the disease, if possible, or lessen the symptoms. A drug dealer just gives you whatever you want for money. It is surprising that some cannot make that very important distinction concerning why one of those activities is legal while the other is not.


Sure most doctors don't deliver the drugs, they are merely facilitators of the drug trade. Doctors generally send their customers to pharmacists who perform the same function as a street dealer.



As for the people who question why street drugs are not as pure as those on the shelves of your local pharmacy, you make an excellent argument in favor of legalization. Thanks.
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Mars
jvquarterback wrote:
Doctors generally send their customers to pharmacists who perform the same function as a street dealer.

I love it when street dealers refuse to sell drugs to users because they've already given them a limited supply for a specific amount of time and they're afraid of possible abuse.
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Guest
In other words, drugs should be legal because you can buy drugs that are just as effective and safe on the street for cheaper than going to a doctor and pharmacist. And drugs should be legalized because drugs sold on the street because they are not as safe.
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