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Low Blow

by Gunk · 9/14/2015

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lawngnome
I have read these forums for a long time, and most of the discussion has been entertaining or educational. But this topic prompted me to create an account.



I am not a die hard BYU fan, I have many issues with the program, but I am from Utah, and I do watch all the games.



As a member of the church, the state of BYU football is extremely concerning right now. The wins are amazing, no doubt, and no one can take that away from the team. They deserve all the praise in the world for how they have battled through adversity this season. While both games were mostly ugly, they have proved that BYU is the most dominant team in the NCAA in the last 2 minutes of games.



On to the topic, the cheapshots. I consider myself fairly objective, and so far this season I've counted at least 2 major cheapshots, and multiple minor unsportsmanlike plays. Are the players perfect? No. No one expects them to be. Are people using it as an excuse to bash the church? Yes. But putting all that aside, there is a culture of dirty at BYU, and any youtube search will return video after video of BYU cheapshots, From Van Noy to the Brawl, there are at least 10 or 15 videos of clear cheapshots. This needs to be addressed. No one wants to see kids miss games for a moment of lost temper. But the nut punch should have gotten him ejected, he got lucky. Throwing a punch in a game is worth of ejection.



BYU football is a missionary tool first, not my idea thats what its slated as. If it ceases to be that, it will be re-evaluated, no one wants to see that. Bronco has to put in some hard discipline because clearly what hes doing is having no effect. As great as Nacua was in the last game, he should probably still be suspended for his cowardly actions in the Brawl. Sucker punches from behind are never acceptable, and to all who say he was hit first, he wasnt. Im working on finding the feed that put it in chronological order, he punched first then got layed out, and thats when he cut his eye.



The cougars are having a great season, and hopefully that continues, but the cheapshots are a black mark on every victory, and they need to be fixed.
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BoiseBYU
Gnome, do you really know best what sort of punishment to hand out to any player and do you know what punishment or what conditions were imposed in, for example, Nacua's case? If not, then I fail to see the merit or the relevance of what you say. Look, no one at BYU condones cheap shots and I at least am comfortable that when they happen they will be handled as they all have been over the years. If you think BYU is the only place that has cheap shots happening, then you do not know much about college football. I try to remember a couple of things. Going to BYU and playing at BYU does not mean you are all of the sudden devoid of errors, mistakes, problems and areas needing improvement. BYU may have higher expectations than some places, but that does not mean we are any better and most of the fan base gets that and we support the coaches and the administration in helping students improve in character, ability and effort. Typically, when students do stupid things, it is outside the glare of the television camera and an audience of millions. In my view a bad act or play does not make it a defining moment for the team or the school. Rather it makes it one more teaching moment for the coach.
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Guest
Honestly, as objectively as I can be, I feel that Utah instructing their defense to spear at Chuckie Keeton's knees was far more dirty than a BYU player retaliating for a late hit with a nut punch. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be penalized or even have some out of game discipline, but I feel attempting to purposely knock out a star player is very dirty.
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jacksonman
I don't post on here much either. But I don't think he was aiming for his nuts and I think he was clearly bothered by an extremely late hit that was tacky and done solely to rough him up. He was just frustrated to an unsportsmanlike late hit and reacted in an inappropriate way but reasonable considering the circumstances. Takes an extra amount of control and restraint to not react in a situation like that and many 18-23 years old don't have that.
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nuk13
BoiseBYU wrote:
Gnome, do you really know best what sort of punishment to hand out to any player and do you know what punishment or what conditions were imposed in, for example, Nacua's case? If not, then I fail to see the merit or the relevance of what you say. Look, no one at BYU condones cheap shots and I at least am comfortable that when they happen they will be handled as they all have been over the years. If you think BYU is the only place that has cheap shots happening, then you do not know much about college football. I try to remember a couple of things. Going to BYU and playing at BYU does not mean you are all of the sudden devoid of errors, mistakes, problems and areas needing improvement. BYU may have higher expectations than some places, but that does not mean we are any better and most of the fan base gets that and we support the coaches and the administration in helping students improve in character, ability and effort. Typically, when students do stupid things, it is outside the glare of the television camera and an audience of millions. In my view a bad act or play does not make it a defining moment for the team or the school. Rather it makes it one more teaching moment for the coach.


Boise, you put this very well.
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Cougs_Rule
lawngnome wrote:
I have read these forums for a long time, and most of the discussion has been entertaining or educational. But this topic prompted me to create an account.



I am not a die hard BYU fan, I have many issues with the program, but I am from Utah, and I do watch all the games.



As a member of the church, the state of BYU football is extremely concerning right now. The wins are amazing, no doubt, and no one can take that away from the team. They deserve all the praise in the world for how they have battled through adversity this season. While both games were mostly ugly, they have proved that BYU is the most dominant team in the NCAA in the last 2 minutes of games.



On to the topic, the cheapshots. I consider myself fairly objective, and so far this season I've counted at least 2 major cheapshots, and multiple minor unsportsmanlike plays. Are the players perfect? No. No one expects them to be. Are people using it as an excuse to bash the church? Yes. But putting all that aside, there is a culture of dirty at BYU, and any youtube search will return video after video of BYU cheapshots, From Van Noy to the Brawl, there are at least 10 or 15 videos of clear cheapshots. This needs to be addressed. No one wants to see kids miss games for a moment of lost temper. But the nut punch should have gotten him ejected, he got lucky. Throwing a punch in a game is worth of ejection.



BYU football is a missionary tool first, not my idea thats what its slated as. If it ceases to be that, it will be re-evaluated, no one wants to see that. Bronco has to put in some hard discipline because clearly what hes doing is having no effect. As great as Nacua was in the last game, he should probably still be suspended for his cowardly actions in the Brawl. Sucker punches from behind are never acceptable, and to all who say he was hit first, he wasnt. Im working on finding the feed that put it in chronological order, he punched first then got layed out, and thats when he cut his eye.



The cougars are having a great season, and hopefully that continues, but the cheapshots are a black mark on every victory, and they need to be fixed.


What was the other "major cheap shot?"



Yon may prefer to live a life of passivity, peacefulness, or whatever you want to call your piety, but seriously? Should we line up the character issues of team X vs BYU players? Just because you are a peaceful troll, does that not make you a troll all the same? Or maybe we should just take your stone throwing as a sign that you are without sin. You are welcome to watch your examplar Ute team and hear no evil speak no evil see no evil but don't think for a moment that these don't happen is more sever amounts.

No one is condoning the punch by Lui. As Bronco said he lost composure. And how do you know everything that transpired with Nacua at the bowl game? No one does bc there is not clear film on the precedent events. How did he get a bloodied eye before giving the sucker punch? Bottom line? Memphis gang jumped Koroma and Nacua being the warrior that he was lost control, probably on the guy who used a helmet as a lethal weapon. Add no, I'm not condoning what he did. I think you know very little about Memphis, Shelby county and that part of the world.

And your language that this team is out of control totally smacks of Ute trolling. Maybe you shouldn't follow football anymore. Sounds like you have a strange fettish for violence while also trying to decry it. Sounds kind of like a catholic Priest.

Sorry to light you up on your first post, gnome, you might be a really nice guy. But you might be the most naive person posting today or a troll. What say you?
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CAFB_04-12
lawngnome wrote:
... there is a culture of dirty at BYU...


Whatever dude.
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Schmoe
lawngnome wrote:
... there is a culture of dirty at BYU...


Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that this line refutes your claim of being "impartial" or whatever. As much fun as it is to have an LDS Utah fan come on the board and lecture us, I'm gonna pass.
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Gunk
There is dirty play at every institution and in every pile-on.



The difference here is BYU is a target. Because of what BYU is supposed to stand for people notice and harp on it more. It's why YouTube videos of cheapshots by BYU teams are made and not of other schools. In short, it's a witch hunt. The evidence is gathered and given it's volume a case is made that it is a phenomenon at BYU and no other school. If every other university was under as big a microscope as BYU, I highly doubt you would find any significant difference in the amount of cheapshots made by BYU vs. other schools. No one is making compilations of dirty Ute players because there is no incentive to do so. No one would care if Ute players were deemed "dirty."



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Schmoe
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Screamineagle
I guess I am a hypocrite but like I have said before I am glad they are showing some fight.If there is a culture of dirty at BYU it really doesnt bother me that much. The rules are there to keep this in check. Football is an emotional physical game. It goes both ways.20 years ago this would not even have been news but now it gets blown out of proportion and all the haters can have a field day sharing and laughing all over social media. Go mow some lawns or do some other service project quit worrying about it and move on.The nut shots go both ways he just got caught.
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blue42
Gunk wrote:
No one is making compilations of dirty Ute players because there is no incentive to do so. No one would care if Ute players were deemed "dirty."



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I beg to differ here, the only reason no one is making compilations of dirty Ute players is because they are never on TV so no video to compile it! Oh Crap I guess that was a low blow by me! :bug: Crap I am a dirty BYU fan!
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Mars
snoscythe wrote:
Actually, throwing a punch is supposed to be an automatic ejection. If it's in the first half, you just miss the rest of the game, if it's in the second half, you're supposed to be automatically suspended the first half of the next game as well. If we were in a conference, the conference officiating committee would probably reassess the nard-punch over the weekend, and we'd be hearing today about how the puncher is suspended the first half of the game against UCLA. Independence pays off again!!

The punch will be reviewed by an outside supervisory committee who may add additional penalties before the UCLA game- just like if BYU was in a conference.
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Cougs_Rule
Done. No CFO suspension. Sorry Utegnome. Your two minutes are up



I doubt you care to disclose the other "dirty play."
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snoscythe
Cougs_Rule wrote:
I doubt you care to disclose the other "dirty play."


My guess is that he is talking about Preator's hit on Nebraska's tightend, which looks like a late hit until you realize that from Preator's angle he couldn't see whether the TE made the catch or not. Not like that matters to someone with an axe to grind.
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lawngnome
The National attention that Byu is getting for the dirty plays is not because it's BYU, but because in 2 games, there have been two clearly dirty plays. The "other play" is diving at a recievers knees after the ball has hit the ground. His head was up as he saw the ball hit, it then lowered and he dived into the knee. Nationally accepted as dirty. The punch is self explanatory as dirty, as for spearing, that's a valid point, I'm not trying to argue against byu or for a specific punishment. Only that the last two games have disgusted me. Diving on a fumble pile, is relatively common practice. Leading with the helmet is definitely not the way to do it. But it wasn't a completely extra curricular play.



And yes it is a teaching moment for the coaches, but when no penalty is brought, other schools, players, and fans look at that as no discipline.



Again, just my opinion. I'm not here to bash byu or its fans, I'm just sick of seeing articles about how dirty byu isis. It makes everyone look bad. Just Google byu and dirty and see how many articles come up from legitimate sources. It gives the program a bad name.



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imuakahuku
first off punches are thrown on almost every play. You just don't see them and a lot off the time they are camouflaged. Second, who knows where the BSU donkey hit UL when he was "grabbing" for the ball. I suspect he hit or clawed UL and that was what he reacted to. Third, he had the ball in his left hand and therefore struck with his right. If the guy were turned around it would have been a blow to his upper body. They were tangled and he threw the punch in reaction to what the guy was doing and not to just throw a punch. This was not an intentional "dirty" play by UL. It was in reaction to what the guy did or was doing to him. He threw a punch with his free hand. This is not the same as the guys that rake people in face, kick them in the groin, or step on hands a legs just trying to hurt people.

It is especially violent for linemen. There are so many dirty things done at the line I'm glad I was always too small to be in the trenches. But as a WR and a safety it blindsided, smacked in the head, stepped on, jersey nearly ripped off, face mask grabbed, tripped, and so on. I hate the cheap shots and low blows but in this case it was just a guy who got mad at something the other guy did. It was not to put him out of the game and he didn't just do it to do it. If you haven't played football and been in the pile you really don't know. When the announcers say the ball at the bottom has probably changed hands several times they mean it because they've been there. If you haven't maybe you have been in a scrum for a loose basketball or at least seen one on tv. Have you ever noticed how many people get elbowed or gouged during the fight for the ball? To me it is amazing there are not more fights in football and basketball for that matter. But the players address the "issues" on field and they all know it. You do something dirty and you will get you comeuppance. I'm glad they are done with UL so he and they can get back to focusing on UCLA. I suggest you not watch sports if this behavior upsets you. Coaches try to control it but when people are competing against each other in a physical manner things happen. You could watch curling if you can't take it anymore. BTW, I bet BYU is one of the "cleanest" teams in college although I doubt they are squeaky clean.



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snoscythe
lawngnome wrote:
The "other play" is diving at a recievers knees after the ball has hit the ground. His head was up as he saw the ball hit, it then lowered and he dived into the knee.


I have to admit I've been lying in waiting hoping you would bring this up, because the video doesn't back up the narrative being pushed by butt-hurt Huskers and Utes and discredits anyone calling BYU "dirty" for a defender making the only play available--the right play. Here's the video:



[youtube]AvRAjhMoxGM[/youtube]



Now let's take your assertions in turn:


diving at a recievers knees after the ball has hit the ground


If you're quick with your pause button, and I've attached a freeze frame below for your reference, you'll notice something--Preator is beginning his tackle before the ball hits the ground 5+ yards downfield...he's committed to the tackle before the ball hits it. Yes, the dive continued after the ball hit, but Newton's Second Law of Motion and all that...kind of hard to stop that dive once you commit...before the ball hits the turf.


His head was up as he saw the ball hit


Well, in the same freeze frame, his head is down looking upfield while the ball is downfield 5+ yards. I guess BYU players are held to a higher standard because of the eyes in the back of their helmets?


[his head] then lowered and he dived into the knee.


Again, he was already diving before the ball hit the turf, so your statement that he only dove after the ball hit the turf is flat wrong, and the freeze frame shows his head lowering before the ball hits the turf.



In short, Preator was coming from behind the TE and the TE's body would have blocked his view of a catch had the TE come down with the ball. He was looking upfield at the TE, not downfield where the ball eventually hit, so as a defender you have to assume he caught the ball and make the tackle. When you're a DB against a NFL-size TE, you hit the legs. Preator made the best play available to him with the view and knowledge he had. The video refutes your narrative, and exonerates him from your accusations.
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SpiffCoug
lawngnome wrote:
And yes it is a teaching moment for the coaches, but when no penalty is brought, other schools, players, and fans look at that as no discipline.



Again, just my opinion. I'm not here to bash byu or its fans, I'm just sick of seeing articles about how dirty byu isis. It makes everyone look bad. Just Google byu and dirty and see how many articles come up from legitimate sources. It gives the program a bad name.



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First off, you assume there is no penalty that will be dealt out by Bronco and BYU.



Second, you are here to bash BYU and its fans, because that's all you have done in all four of your career posts.



Third, you are just wrong in your interpretation of both plays you cite.
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