Prop 8 Revisited

Mars wrote:

Isn't Utah #1 in youth suicide nationally?

No. That would be Alaska.



My guess is that someone started claiming that when they misunderstood the stat that suicide is the leading cause of death for those aged 10-24 in Utah. Unfortunately, suicide is the leading cause of death in that age group in most states.



When you control Utah for race and other factors, it falls to just about the national average, not that that is anything to brag about, but the LGBT community has been exaggerating Utah's relative suicide crisis in its attacks on Church policy. Utah has a higher suicide rate because it is white with a significant population of Native Americans, in a cold winter/hot summer climate, and blends rural with upper-middle class populations.

Some quick stats I've found:



Utah is 6th nationally in youth suicide (2015), 8th nationally in adult suicide (2014), and in the top 10 in depression.



Youth suicide has tripled over the past 10 years in Utah.

Youth mental illness has tripled over the past 6 years in Utah.

Youth suicide has gone up about 35% of the past 10 years nationally.



Youth who attend church at least once a week are less likely to commit suicide.



The Huffington Post claims a positive relationship between increasing youth suicide in high LDS states. They don't claim causation, and no studies have been done that do claim proof of causation.



LGBT youth nationally are 8 times more likely to commit suicide.



The leading cause of death for youth nationally is accidental trauma/injury.

I'll consider the church's prop 8 efforts a mistake when I see that the LGBT community/leadership quit their political tactics against churches. I see the church's efforts as another wall the LGBT group had to cross to keeping traditional marriage as the norm, as it should be in a healthy society. Does it mean someone isn't fee to practice their chosen sexual orientation? no.

The LGBT politically active segment are waging war on traditional values and traditional beliefs. I don't appreciate that, just like they don't appreciate effots to KEEP traditional values in the mainstream. I can appreciate any LGBT person who comes out and wants to practice their beliefs and don't have a problem with it. But when that same segment wants to force me to believe that it is normal (or even sexually correct) that's when I can't bend anymore.

Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's.



Again, I see no place for politics in religion. If the Church does a good job teaching correct principles and something pops up on the ballot that is contrary to LDS principles, people will vote and get involved according to the values they believe in. Shouldn't the Church trust its membership?



Now, for Prop 8 the Church went a whole lot further. For example, stake presidents in our area were asked to make a list of wealthy members (wonder how they figured that out), invite said members to a fireside, and "compel" each member to donate a minimum of $1000. Of course, the members were told how they would be blessed...



Why didn't the Church just write a check themselves? Oh, because if they wrote too big of a check (the Church donated over 100k) they would have lost their tax-exempt status. So, instead the Church "invited" individual members to make donations. I guess keeping their tax exempt status was more important than standing up for traditional marriage.



The Church is bleeding members under the age of 45. It's things like Prop 8, blacks and the priesthood, polygamy, overall lack of transparency, and a slew of other oddities that have people scratching their heads. Vague essays and new D&C chapter headings do little to bring clarity. In the past, people with such questions would just silently wonder. In the age of the Internet, that's not the case. People can get together. Find others that are also struggling and not getting answers. There's a wealth of new information to go off of and inform decisions. Reading "anti" propaganda doesn't require secretly visiting an obscure religious bookstore. It's a different world, and the Church still doesn't get it.

Mars wrote:

Some quick stats I've found:



Utah is 6th nationally in youth suicide (2015), 8th nationally in adult suicide (2014), and in the top 10 in depression.



Youth suicide has tripled over the past 10 years in Utah.

Youth mental illness has tripled over the past 6 years in Utah.

Youth suicide has gone up about 35% of the past 10 years nationally.



Youth who attend church at least once a week are less likely to commit suicide.



The Huffington Post claims a positive relationship between increasing youth suicide in high LDS states. They don't claim causation, and no studies have been done that do claim proof of causation.



LGBT youth nationally are 8 times more likely to commit suicide.



The leading cause of death for youth nationally is accidental trauma/injury.

First and foremost any suicide is a tragedy and thus to go and talk statistics is somewhat uncomfortable. That said, I’ve tried to look at the data from a variety of ways and the bottom line is we do not have adequate data to connect LDS LGBT youth and suicide in any correlative and meaningful way. There are some ferociously anti Mormons folk who claim large numbers of such suicides, but the numbers can’t be substantiated. And while in the abstract UT’s position as number 6 seems large, when compared to surrounding states it is not statistically out of order. There seems to be a high altitude issue somehow at play. None of this is to downplay the seriousness of youth suicide or the need for church members to be more inclusive of our LGBT brothers and sisters. But for now it is unwarranted to claim that LDS LGBT members are committing suicide and it has to do with their status as LDS.

Gunk wrote:

Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's.



Again, I see no place for politics in religion. If the Church does a good job teaching correct principles and something pops up on the ballot that is contrary to LDS principles, people will vote and get involved according to the values they believe in. Shouldn't the Church trust its membership?



Now, for Prop 8 the Church went a whole lot further. For example, stake presidents in our area were asked to make a list of wealthy members (wonder how they figured that out), invite said members to a fireside, and "compel" each member to donate a minimum of $1000. Of course, the members were told how they would be blessed...



Why didn't the Church just write a check themselves? Oh, because if they wrote too big of a check (the Church donated over 100k) they would have lost their tax-exempt status. So, instead the Church "invited" individual members to make donations. I guess keeping their tax exempt status was more important than standing up for traditional marriage.



The Church is bleeding members under the age of 45. It's things like Prop 8, blacks and the priesthood, polygamy, overall lack of transparency, and a slew of other oddities that have people scratching their heads. Vague essays and new D&C chapter headings do little to bring clarity. In the past, people with such questions would just silently wonder. In the age of the Internet, that's not the case. People can get together. Find others that are also struggling and not getting answers. There's a wealth of new information to go off of and inform decisions. Reading "anti" propaganda doesn't require secretly visiting an obscure religious bookstore. It's a different world, and the Church still doesn't get it.

People have been “scratching their heads,” whatever that means, for over 100 years as it relates to polygamy. The protests regarding blacks and women and the priesthood have been around for a long time too. So if they really are scratching their heads, they’re probably to the bone by now. The essays recently released are far far from vague but are instead direct, clarifying and transparent in every way regarding these challenging issues. To claim that the Church does not get it is flat out ignorant of the multitudinous ways the Church is reaching out to people. Younger people are leaving the Church, but this is true across many religions. It is not an LDS problem alone and to lump it all on things like polygamy is a canard. You ask should not the Church trust its members and I can ask you a like question: should not you and have faith in and trust the prophets? That does not mean they are perfect or will never err, but in my book it means having faith they’re seeking the Lord’s guidance in these challenging times.

A lot of talk in this thread seems to be going on the thinking that the Church is in trouble when members leave it (for whatever foolish reason). The Church will be fine. The Lord can do His own work. It's those that have left it that have the problem. They need the Church far more than it needs them.

It's like the scriptures say: When you have 100 sheep, and 1 of them gets lost, pssh, whatever, bye you stupid sheep.

As Boise notes, youth suicide is suddenly a huge trend in the Western States for whatever reason. Washington, Oregon, Nevada, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, and Colorado. So it's not exactly correlated to religious or non-religious, conservative or liberal.



I also agree that the Church has done a good job with the historical essays on their website about tough issues. That's what makes it so easy to compare Prop 8 to Blacks and the Priesthood, the fact that the Church admits that sometimes, they make mistakes, and just plain get things wrong.



The difference is that homosexual acts are a sin, and being black isn't, obviously. But at the same time there's no known "cure" for homosexuality. It's basically a death-sentence sin some people are born with hidden in their DNA, with no chance for parole until sometime after this life is over. That's tough. The more kind and loving we can be with people suffering that fate, IMO, the better. I can't even imagine how hard that must be.

Mars wrote:

As Boise notes, youth suicide is suddenly a huge trend in the Western States for whatever reason. Washington, Oregon, Nevada, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, and Colorado. So it's not exactly correlated to religious or non-religious, conservative or liberal.



I also agree that the Church has done a good job with the historical essays on their website about tough issues. That's what makes it so easy to compare Prop 8 to Blacks and the Priesthood, the fact that the Church admits that sometimes, they make mistakes, and just plain get things wrong.



The difference is that homosexual acts are a sin, and being black isn't, obviously. But at the same time there's no known "cure" for homosexuality. It's basically a death-sentence sin some people are born with hidden in their DNA, with no chance for parole until sometime after this life is over. That's tough. The more kind and loving we can be with people suffering that fate, IMO, the better. I can't even imagine how hard that must be.

I have dear family members who are gay. We have gay people in our ward who attend. I cannot imagine how hard it must be for them. I love them dearly and so admire their efforts to live the Gospel and keep their covenants. But I am not so proud to think that I have it easier. I have my own weaknesses. That is what the Church is for, to help us all bear one another's burdens, and to move forward together. Maybe in hindsight more will be said about Prop 8 by the Church. I would not be surprised that internally Church leaders have concluded that the tact they took with Prop 8 is not an approach that works. But that is sheer speculation on my part. I find comfort in what the Church has done since in loving our gay neighbors. The Church was behind landmark legislation in Utah of all places that put into place protections for gays in various areas that went along with religious freedom protections. Utah! It was thanks to the Church. The Church has opened up new forums and groups for gay members. Gay members are called to Church leadership positions. Sometimes these changes are incremental but I see them as being in the Lord's due time. The amount and quality of changes will never please all, but they are very real changes. There is so much more we as members can do, especially with regard to our youth who are vulnerable and need our loving attention.

To me, I see Prop 8 as somewhat similar to the Nauvoo Expositor. Mobs only need a reason to assemble and march. It doesn't need to be a good reason; just A reason.



The mob in/around Carthage & Nauvoo wanted Joseph Smith dead. But they needed him in custody so they knew where to get him without him being able to escape. When he decided to destroy the Expositor they had their excuse to lock him up. Destroying that printing press was a mistake that cost Smith his life. His reasons for doing so, while probably justified to his and Mormons' minds led to his death/assassination/martyrdom.



Prop 8, while joining it made sense to religiously minded individuals (almost every religion worked together to oppose it) it gave the LGBTQ "mob" their reason to march against the Church. It gave the mob the evidence of the Church's hatred and bigotry and discriminatory inclinations towards people of that persuasion.

Mars wrote:

It's like the scriptures say: When you have 100 sheep, and 1 of them gets lost, pssh, whatever, bye you stupid sheep.

I'm not forgetting or ignoring the parable of the lost sheep. I'm commenting on the tone some posts have where it seems like they're saying the Church itself is jeopardized when some members leave. Or, even worse, they suggest members leaving is somehow the Church's fault.

Mars wrote:

As Boise notes, youth suicide is suddenly a huge trend in the Western States for whatever reason. Washington, Oregon, Nevada, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, and Colorado. So it's not exactly correlated to religious or non-religious, conservative or liberal.



I also agree that the Church has done a good job with the historical essays on their website about tough issues. That's what makes it so easy to compare Prop 8 to Blacks and the Priesthood, the fact that the Church admits that sometimes, they make mistakes, and just plain get things wrong.



The difference is that homosexual acts are a sin, and being black isn't, obviously. But at the same time there's no known "cure" for homosexuality. It's basically a death-sentence sin some people are born with hidden in their DNA, with no chance for parole until sometime after this life is over. That's tough. The more kind and loving we can be with people suffering that fate, IMO, the better. I can't even imagine how hard that must be.

First, are you just comparing Prop 8 itself to the Priesthood ban or are you comparing the Church's entire doctrine on homosexuality to the Priesthood ban? That you admit that homosexual acts are a sin would suggest the former but I want to be clear. And, yes, SSA must be an incredible challenge. One only the Lord can ultimately judge. The problem is when people, including some misguided members, think it's the Church that came up with the doctrine when it's the Lord Himself. In other words, it's the Lord who asks members with SSA to carry that cross, not just a bunch of old, out of touch guys at the top of the Church who can change it if they want to. Kindness and love are certainly in order but so is the understanding that the doctrine is not going to change nor should it.



Second, when has the Church ever said it was wrong with the Priesthood ban? I don't recall reading that in the essay. The Church has disavowed prior reasons given for it but that's not a reason to jump to the conclusion, which many seem very eager to do, that it was a mistake. At the very least these people seem to sell every prophet up to Pres Kimball very short. Or they seem to think the Lord would just allow the Church to be wrong on the issue for decades. Beyond all that, going too far with the thinking that Church leaders can make mistakes today, because they have before, is a slippery slope indeed and gives those who are not grounded in the Gospel or have the Spirit a reason to say "The Church is wrong but hopefully they'll come around" whenever they don't agree with it. That's what some members (or former members) are doing now with the gay issue and they misread and misuse the Priesthhood ban to justify that thinking.

SpiffCoug wrote:

To me, I see Prop 8 as somewhat similar to the Nauvoo Expositor. Mobs only need a reason to assemble and march. It doesn't need to be a good reason; just A reason.



The mob in/around Carthage & Nauvoo wanted Joseph Smith dead. But they needed him in custody so they knew where to get him without him being able to escape. When he decided to destroy the Expositor they had their excuse to lock him up. Destroying that printing press was a mistake that cost Smith his life. His reasons for doing so, while probably justified to his and Mormons' minds led to his death/assassination/martyrdom.



Prop 8, while joining it made sense to religiously minded individuals (almost every religion worked together to oppose it) it gave the LGBTQ "mob" their reason to march against the Church. It gave the mob the evidence of the Church's hatred and bigotry and discriminatory inclinations towards people of that persuasion.

Even if Prop 8 had never happened, don't think for a minute they wouldn't have found plenty of other reasons to attack the Church. Anyone who reads the news has seen case after case where they're just looking for a fight and to squash whoever doesn't agree with them. And this should be no surprise to anyone who reads the scriptures where it's taught that Satan will rage in the hearts of men and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

KingCoug wrote:

Or, even worse, they suggest members leaving is somehow the Church's fault.

You take a pretty hard tone in some of your posts. Sometimes it has been the Church's fault that people leave. You must remember, it's a case by case basis. There are all kinds of disturbing examples.



I've had some pretty lengthy conversations with my stake president. We happen to be pretty good friends. He frankly admits that church leaders make mistakes. These are mistakes that affect peoples lives. Does that mean the gospel is not true? No. The gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect, as Christ was perfect.



That said, the administration of the church is by men. Some pretty dedicated folks that give it their best. Sometimes they are inspired. Sometimes not. Do they make mistakes? Yes they do. By admitting church leaders at all levels make mistakes does not mean the gospel is not true. It simply means that humans are fallible and have flaws. We're all striving. The important point is that we keep striving, and try not to offend people that have struggles. An extended hand is more welcoming than a harsh judgment.

Ddawg wrote:

Or, even worse, they suggest members leaving is somehow the Church's fault.

You take a pretty hard tone in some of your posts. Sometimes it has been the Church's fault that people leave. You must remember, it's a case by case basis. There are all kinds of disturbing examples.



I've had some pretty lengthy conversations with my stake president. We happen to be pretty good friends. He frankly admits that church leaders make mistakes. These are mistakes that affect peoples lives. Does that mean the gospel is not true? No. The gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect, as Christ was perfect.



That said, the administration of the church is by men. Some pretty dedicated folks that give it their best. Sometimes they are inspired. Sometimes not. Do they make mistakes? Yes they do. By admitting church leaders at all levels make mistakes does not mean the gospel is not true. It simply means that humans are fallible and have flaws. We're all striving. The important point is that we keep striving, and try not to offend people that have struggles. An extended hand is more welcoming than a harsh judgment.

Ask 100 people who left the Church who's fault it was that they left and 99 will blame the Church or an individual in the Church. It's a given that Church leaders are not perfect. But that can't be used as a valid justification for leaving the Church. But that's what we see pretty much across the board - those who've left never taking accountability for themselves and always placing the blame somewhere else.

KingCoug wrote:

Even if Prop 8 had never happened, don't think for a minute they wouldn't have found plenty of other reasons to attack the Church. Anyone who reads the news has seen case after case where they're just looking for a fight and to squash whoever doesn't agree with them. And this should be no surprise to anyone who reads the scriptures where it's taught that Satan will rage in the hearts of men and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

Of course they would have found a reason. It was some poor reading of the tea leaves for the Church. Same with the Expositor.

KingCoug wrote:

- those who've left never taking accountability for themselves and always placing the blame somewhere else.

Not true 100% of the time. You take a pretty hard line. As I posted, it must be looked at case by case. Painting people with a broad brush is rarely helpful.



I could share a case or two with you. I don't have the time right now.

I have no problem painting with a broad brush. But I think you must still leave room for exceptions.

"Over time, Church leaders and members advanced many theories to explain the priesthood and temple restrictions. None of these explanations is accepted today as the official doctrine of the Church."



I guess people manage to read and interpret that in different ways. To me, it means that the reasons given to the Saints about the Priesthood ban weren't true. What was published by Bruce R. McConkie in Mormon Doctrine wasn't true. I don't see why some have a hard time seeing how others compare that to their feelings about the relationship between the church and those with same-sex attraction today.



If I pray about it, and I receive an answer that disagrees with what I'm told in Sacrament meeting, who am I to believe, God, or my church leaders?

SpiffCoug wrote:

I have no problem painting with a broad brush. But I think you must still leave room for exceptions.

The reason you can't paint with a broad brush is because you are dealing with peoples lives. Ultimately, we are suppose to be helping people - ourselves and others - return and live with God. Right? By our very nature we all fall short, to a greater or lesser degree.



David O. McKay said - “The divinity of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is shown in its organization as well as in its teachings. Godhood, brotherhood, service—these three guiding principles … permeate all our Church activity.”



Godhood, brotherhood, and service should guide us in all our activities. I would submit that includes disaffected members, ex-communicated members, and non-members in all walks of life including the LBGTQ community. I understand that many in that community is aggressive, militant, hostile, really don't like us. I got it. Still, I submit that we can maintain our standards and principles without drawing a hard/hostile line. Why make enemies when you can make friends?

Mars wrote:

"Over time, Church leaders and members advanced many theories to explain the priesthood and temple restrictions. None of these explanations is accepted today as the official doctrine of the Church."



I guess people manage to read and interpret that in different ways. To me, it means that the reasons given to the Saints about the Priesthood ban weren't true. What was published by Bruce R. McConkie in Mormon Doctrine wasn't true. I don't see why some have a hard time seeing how others compare that to their feelings about the relationship between the church and those with same-sex attraction today.



If I pray about it, and I receive an answer that disagrees with what I'm told in Sacrament meeting, who am I to believe, God, or my church leaders?

Your post above demonstrates just how lost you are on this.



Allow me to make it as simple as I can...



The doctrine of the Church on homosexual acts is never going to change because it goes directly against what the Plan of Salvation (including exaltation) is all about. Men and women sealed in an eternal marriage is needed for this and that's why homosexuality is a dead end. This is, or should be, basic Gospel 101 stuff. And it's hard to have sympathy with Church members, including yourself, who haven't learned it and so are all the more vulnerable to the philosophies of men on this issue.



Speaking of Gospel 101 stuff, there's a place for personal revelation. But if you're saying you have - or could - pray about something (be it the Church's stance on homosexuality or whatever) and the Lord is going to give you the real scoop while the prophet and apostles are left in the dark, you're even more delusional than I thought.



Go back and read that quote from Joseph Smith on apostasy.