The Constitution and the LDS Faith

Anyone familiar with the LDS faith knows that LDS folks have a peculiar relationship between the law and the way they conduct their lives. In a nutshell, we believe in conducting ourselves lawfully, honorably, and being good citizens (wherever we live). This is laid out in the 12th Article of Faith.



However, if you have studied the Doctrine and Covenants, and listened to the prophets and apostles over the years, you know the LDS church in general, and especially those living in the U.S., hold the U.S. Constitution in special regard. It's not just the law of the land. It was inspired by God himself.



D&C 101:77

"According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection for all flesh, according to just and holy principles;"



D&C 101:80

"And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood."



Elder Dallin H.Oaks wrote an article back in 1992: " The Divinely Inspired Constitution." It's a fairly detailed article. It it worth reading.



Elder Oaks states - "I have always felt that the United States Constitution’s closest approach to scriptural stature is in the phrasing of our Bill of Rights."



The 1st 10 Amendments, known as the Bill of Rights, were all passed at the same time. The Bill of Rights came about because states were calling for greater protection of individual rights and liberties. The Bill of Rights was inspired by Thomas Jefferson and written by James Madison. (Over time, a total of 27 Amendments have been passed.)



It must be remembered, the U.S. Constitution was a grand experiment. It was the 1st Constitution written in the world. It's primary purpose is to create the government, then limit it's power with checks and balances. Remember, the motivation of the Founding Fathers was the tyranny they lived under when ruled by the British king. Not satisfied that the liberties of citizens were protected enough, the Bill of Rights was created to guarantee citizens their liberties.



Those rights are:

1. Freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and petition.

2. Right to keep and bear arms in order to maintain a well regulated militia.

3. No quartering of soldiers.

4. Freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures.

5. Right to due process of law, freedom from self-incrimination, double jeopardy.

6. Rights of accused persons, e.g., right to a speedy and public trial.

7. Right of trial by jury in civil cases.

8. Freedom from excessive bail, cruel and unusual punishments.

9. Other rights of the people.

10. Powers reserved to the states.



All these rights were inspired by God for our benefit. We are obligated to appreciate them and protect them.

True. All of those things exist in a balance. Too much is bad, and too little is bad.



Freedom of speech- There are sensible limits. Crying "bomb" in an airport, or "fire" in a theatre. Libel and slander. Making threats. All limited justly by law.



Search and seizure- There are limits. It can be done within those limits. If a person agrees. If something illegal can be seen from outside. With a judge's order.



The right to bear arms- Reasonable limits. Some people lose their right to possess guns due to crime. Some guns are illegal to own. In some places, it is illegal to carry guns. And the LDS Church asks that no guns be brought onto church property.

I for one always center on the "well regulated" language of the second amendment - which doesn't make me very popular with other second amendment constitutionalists.

It's important to keep in mind that all these rights are important. They are building blocks for our freedoms. The most important is the 1st - Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, press, assembly, and petition. Listed 2nd is the right to keep and bear arms.



Of note, a short 30 years after the Bill of Rights became the law of the land, the Lord began the restoration of the gospel. Even with freedom of speech and freedom of religion guaranteed, great opposition and violence was experienced by the Saints.



Again, I want to bring attention to our fundamental rights and stress how interconnected they are, and important in LDS history - including the 2nd Amendment. After the Saints were driven out of Missouri 1839 (with great violence), Joseph and the Saints moved to Commerce, Illinois. Commerce was renamed Nauvoo.



In 1840 the governor of Illinois signed into law a charter granting Nauvoo and Joseph Smith broad powers. In that charter was granted the right to create a "body of military men." So was created the Nauvoo legion to protect the Saints against enemies both domestic and foreign. It grew to 2,500 armed men, infantry, calvary, and light cannon. To put it into perspective, the standing U.S. Army at that time was 8,500. The Nauvoo Legion was a formidable armed force with the express purpose of protecting the Saints from violent mobs.

Even if "well regulated" trips you up, remember that, at the time the Constitution was written, that had absolutely nothing to do with government regulation as we know it.

This is an important topic. Thanks for raising! For me, every single one of those rights is measured and balanced. Not one is absolute. One doesn’t get to yell fire! in the crowded theater, or possess child pornography, or make false claims to sell a product for example and claim first amendment protection. We’ve balanced the harm to the benefit of the expression and ruled against it. One doesn’t get to practice human sacrifice and claim the free exercise of religion. Only unreasonable searches and seizures are prohibited and over time what is deemed unreasonable has changed. Due process is a judgment call, as is cruel and unusual punishment. I do not think the second amendment is entitled to some absolute protection any more than any of the other rights set forth. There’s no right to rocket propelled grenade launchers or fully automatic weapons, at least as far as I can tell. So how and in what way to balance is part of our constitutional framework and heritage. That does not make the Constitution any less inspired. It is just a reality. Because re will be balancing and it will be done by Judges, I salute Trump for his nomination of Justice Gorsuch. He is the type of Justice we need in this role of constitutional weighing of things. It is the best thing Trump has done by far. Finally, for me the inspiration in the Constitution is not so much in the specific bill of rights (we have doubled the Amendments to the Constitution AFTER the Prophet Joseph received his revelations regarding the document) as much as it is in the genius of the constitution and its structural checking and balancing the powers of the branches of government and between the federal government and the states.

24 years after the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ began, Joseph Smith was sitting in a jail in Carthage, Illinois with his brother Hyrum, John Taylor, and Willard Richards. It was June of 1844. The Smith brothers were in jail to face charges for ordering the destruction of a local newspaper, the Nauvoo Expositor, that had been critical of Joseph. A mob of approx. 150-200 militia surrounded Carthage Jail.



On June 27, Cyrus Wheelock visited the jail and smuggled a six shooter (called a pepper-box, not a traditional western six shooter) into Joseph. During the visit, Wheelock slipped the 6 shooter into Joseph's pocket. Joseph already had a single shot pistol that had been smuggled in and given to him by John S. Fullmer. Joseph gave the single shot pistol to Hyrum, and kept the pepperbox six shooter.



When the mob attack began, Hyrum was shot through the door into the left side of his face. He never used his pistol and fell, exclaiming "I am a dead man." Hyrum was not shot several more times while laying on the floor from rifles firing thru the doorway. One lead shot ball grazed Hyrum's chest, entered his throat, and entered his head. Seeing Hyrum killed, Joseph lept to the door and fired his pepperbox pistol into the group of men trying to force their way through the doorway and into the room. He fired 6 times, but the pistol only fired 3x, the rest were misfires. John Taylor stood by the side of the door and used his walking stick to strike muskets that were poking thru the door and firing at the 4 men inside. Three of the mob attackers were wounded by Joseph's shots, with no one dying from their wounds.



In June 1994, Thomas S. Monson wrote in the Ensign, “the Prophet Joseph, with his pistol in hand, was attempting to defend his life and that of his brethren.”



At this point Joseph chose to go to the window in an effort to draw the fire from John Taylor and Willard Richards. Joseph left from the window and was shot to death. Both Joseph and Hyrum were each shot 4 times.



I have read that either 5 or 9 men were indicted for the murders of Joseph and Hyrum. No one was convicted. I cannot confirm which number is correct. However, the fact that no on was convicted is correct.



If you visit the Church History Museum near Temple Square, you will find a glass case that has both Joseph's pepper-box and Hyrum's single shot pistol, and John Taylor's walking stick.

The Nauvoo Legion was disbanded by the state. It never protected the Saints from mobs, nor did it protect brother Joseph. I'm not sure why it was even brought up.

Mars wrote:

The Nauvoo Legion was disbanded by the state. It never protected the Saints from mobs, nor did it protect brother Joseph. I'm not sure why it was even brought up.

You missed the point. The purpose for WHY the Nauvoo Legion was created. To protect the Saints against the hostile mob. It was created because of what the Saints experienced by mob violence in Missouri (Haun's Mill massacre, etc.). The charter was withdrawn by the state of Illinois. The Nauvoo Legion continued to exist and went to Utah with the Saints. It was actually disbanded in Utah in 1887 by the Edmunds-Tucker act and replaced by the Utah National Guard in 1894.

Okay...

And?

Mars wrote:

Okay...

And?

It does not matter that you lack understanding. You did not know or understand why the Nauvoo Legion was created. You did not know or understand the Nauvoo Legion continued to exist after their charter was cancelled. Never mind.

Lol

Mars wrote:
Lol

You really don't know do you? Stunning. After the Saints migrated to Utah, Pres. Buchanan sent the U.S. Army to the Utah Territory to quell the so-called Mormon Rebellion. Became known at the Utah War. Pres. Buchanan sent General Albert Sydney Johnston wit 2,500 troops to crush the Mormon Rebellion.



Guess what? Brigham Young directed Gen. Daniel Wells (commander of the Nauvoo Legion, and member of LDS First Presidency) to engage in a war of delay and destruction of property and supplies, annoy, delay, stampede animals, burn supply trains, blockade the road, keep them from sleeping - but avoid bloodshed and loss of life. The conflict lasted 14 months (1857-1858).



Flash - it was the Nauvoo Legion that engaged in the guerrilla war of delay, annoy, and deny supplies to Johnston's army that ultimately brought about a favorable solution to a potentially ugly conflict.

That was when the Mountain Meadows Massacre occurred, at the cost of 120 civilian lives. The darkest shame in LDS history.



At the end of the "War", the same outcome happened anyway, with Brigham Young being stripped of public office.



Again, do you have a point, or are you just reciting common history without reason?

Mars wrote:

That was when the Mountain Meadows Massacre occurred, at the cost of 120 civilian lives. The darkest shame in LDS history.



At the end of the "War", the same outcome happened anyway, with Brigham Young being stripped of public office.



Again, do you have a point, or are you just reciting common history without reason?

What is your point?

snoscythe wrote:

Even if "well regulated" trips you up, remember that, at the time the Constitution was written, that had absolutely nothing to do with government regulation as we know it.

Just to clarify a bit -- as I read the Second Amendment, the right to bear arms is not to be infringed so that we can have well regulated militias. The right to bear arms is what makes the well regulated militia a possibility. Stating that the right to bear arms "shall not be infringed" indicates to me that they were not creating a new or novel right--they were preserving an existing right as it existed at the time.



I do not read the Second Amendment to limit the right to bear arms to those involved in a well regulated militia. I think that twists the text of the Amendment beyond reasonable interpretation.