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Precedent

by Mars · 1/29/2010

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Guest
jonnylingo wrote:
ProV1 wrote:
It's kind of like being engaged to a really pretty girl but making out with a hottie over the weekend, just for fun. You're still engaged and you haven't committed any sins but the pretty girl doesn't like it.


Except in this case, the guy gets engaged to a super hot and up and coming woman with a great future in front of her, and a great family and past. But you then decide to go and get dirty with an old hag down the street who at one time used to be really hot, but is now just a shadow of her former self with nothing to look forward to.


bad analogy. nd dame is hardly a 'hag' of a football team. Kona already had a strong relationship and history with byu, its coaches, and players. the one weekend in nd wasn't going to be enough to sway him. He would have commited to byu.


I disagree. ND is the very definition of a football hag.



And from the quotes from recruiting sites are showing it looks very much like Kona was swaying pretty strongly in his commitment and had a very fair chance of going to ND.
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snoscythe
jonnylingo wrote:
Kona already had a strong relationship and history with byu, its coaches, and players. the one weekend in nd wasn't going to be enough to sway him. He would have commited to byu.


I don't know how you can be so certain if you read what Kona and his Dad were saying to the recruiting services before the trip:



http://www.cougarcorner.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2333
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Sammich
Lawboy wrote:
People change their minds.



You have to allow for it.

I see (A).



I do not see (B). Nobody HAS to allow for it, in fact---it's an exception when people do allow for a change of mind that is costly to them in any way. Is it more honorable to allow for a change of mind that is costly for you? No. More kindly? Maybe, but only on an individual-by-individual basis; but not necessarily when dealing with a larger system like a football team where decisions like this affect current and future recruits and teammates in myriad ways.
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gmj81
jonnylingo wrote:
You give me your word, and then go out and do things in direct contravention of what you promised me? I'm sure as hell going to question your integrity, especially when I have gone out and told other players to look elsewhere for scholarships based on your promise to me that you were coming to BYU.



Good on Bronco. Nice to see some accountability in recruiting.


That is a question not answered yet. The schwenkes said they were never told they couldn't trip. they did however know that it was in bad taste. that is why they denied the uw trip. nd was too much to pass up though. i don't blame him. i still think he would have been a cougar had our coaches not overeacted. the coaches did an amazing job creating a real sense of unity among this class. kona should have been able to go visit notre dame without his integrity being questioned. but that is just my opinion.


No, in fact it has been answered... in every practically every commitment article posted on TBS, the commits talk about what Bronco expects of them now that they've committed. Gifford Timothy was already a casualty from this VERY class who had his offer pulled after he kept tripping. Don't remember him? Look him up. And it has been reinforced by PARENTS of commits who post on TBS and who were at the official visit with Kona in January.



Reading Kona and his dad's comments to different sets of reporters, it's obvious they are lying. Even if they are not being 100% truthful, that is dishonest. And hey, we all do it at times, but when I get called out on it, I usually fess up as opposed to perpetuating the lie.



So what makes you think you can believe the Schwenke's at this point over Bronco and other commits and their parents? The evidence is all there.
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Mars
jonnylingo wrote:
the coaches did an amazing job creating a real sense of unity among this class.

And Kona did a great job of extracting himself from the Band of Brothers. His overreaction to Bronco's rules cost him dearly. Now let him find a lesser school that isn't bothered by his lack of integrity.
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gmj81
jonnylingo wrote:
ProV1 wrote:
It's kind of like being engaged to a really pretty girl but making out with a hottie over the weekend, just for fun. You're still engaged and you haven't committed any sins but the pretty girl doesn't like it.


Except in this case, the guy gets engaged to a super hot and up and coming woman with a great future in front of her, and a great family and past. But you then decide to go and get dirty with an old hag down the street who at one time used to be really hot, but is now just a shadow of her former self with nothing to look forward to.


bad analogy. nd dame is hardly a 'hag' of a football team. Kona already had a strong relationship and history with byu, its coaches, and players. the one weekend in nd wasn't going to be enough to sway him. He would have commited to byu.


People were saying the same thing about Manti a week before signing day last year too. But he ended up signing with the hag, didn't he?
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bigbluepuma
gmj81 wrote:
hawkwing wrote:
It's kind of like being engaged to a really pretty girl but making out with a hottie over the weekend, just for fun. You're still engaged and you haven't committed any sins but the pretty girl doesn't like it.


Except in this case, the guy gets engaged to a super hot and up and coming woman with a great future in front of her, and a great family and past. But you then decide to go and get dirty with an old hag down the street who at one time used to be really hot, but is now just a shadow of her former self with nothing to look forward to.


bad analogy. nd dame is hardly a 'hag' of a football team. Kona already had a strong relationship and history with byu, its coaches, and players. the one weekend in nd wasn't going to be enough to sway him. He would have commited to byu.


People were saying the same thing about Manti a week before signing day last year too. But he ended up signing with the hag, didn't he?


You summed it up right there. I think that Schwenke had the same stars in his eyes that his father had before the talk with Bronco. I think he was already gone, or he would have reacted entirely differently to Bronco. It just gave both father and son an excuse.
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jonnylingo
snoscythe wrote:
Kona already had a strong relationship and history with byu, its coaches, and players. the one weekend in nd wasn't going to be enough to sway him. He would have commited to byu.


I don't know how you can be so certain if you read what Kona and his Dad were saying to the recruiting services before the trip:



http://www.cougarcorner.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2333


I am just basing it off the comments of him, his father, his uncle, his coach, and the guys at tbs. his family was very much in byu's corner until nd came along and that counts for a lot with these young guys.
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CAFB_04-12
This kid showed he wasn't committed to BYU by visiting ND.



Bronco showed that he wasn't committed to this kid by yanking his scholarship.



BYU does not need this kid.



The kid should have manned up, called the coach, and verbally de-committed. Instead he just blows off the coaching staff and takes a recruiting trip. If you can't commit then you don't deserve a scholarship.
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stuckinbig10country
I have no problem with the offer being pulled for all the reasons already stated.



I am going to take a different approach to the integrity question though. How much integrity does someone have if they just use an institution's money to "go visit a friend?" Sure, ND has deep pockets, but if he was 100% committed to BYU, and was taking this trip that is supposed to be a recruiting visit, he is basically using them for a trip.



I don't think I could in good conscience interview for a position with a different company in a different state, when I have been sent there for training on my current employer's expense.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">
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bigbluepuma
jonnylingo wrote:
jonnylingo wrote:
Kona already had a strong relationship and history with byu, its coaches, and players. the one weekend in nd wasn't going to be enough to sway him. He would have commited to byu.


I don't know how you can be so certain if you read what Kona and his Dad were saying to the recruiting services before the trip:



http://www.cougarcorner.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2333


I am just basing it off the comments of him, his father, his uncle, his coach, and the guys at tbs. his family was very much in byu's corner until nd came along and that counts for a lot with these young guys.


Ya, that would be the operative.
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Yndian
hawkwing wrote:
Those of you who are insinuating that Bronco said something along the lines of someone who doesn't commit to BYU can't live the honor code are being purposely obtuse, or are simply dramatically misunderstanding what really happened.


The Honor Code comment came from Kona's dad:
“He told us that if we were committed to them, then we wouldn’t take a trip to Notre Dame,” said McKay. “He told us about how if Kona didn’t stay true to his commit by going to Notre Dame, then he couldn’t possibly expect him to stay true to the honor code and other things at BYU.”


http://byu.scout.com/2/941915.html
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bigbluepuma
stuckinbig10country wrote:
I have no problem with the offer being pulled for all the reasons already stated.



I am going to take a different approach to the integrity question though. How much integrity does someone have if they just use an institution's money to "go visit a friend?" Sure, ND has deep pockets, but if he was 100% committed to BYU, and was taking this trip that is supposed to be a recruiting visit, he is basically using them for a trip.

I don't think I could in good conscience interview for a position with a different company in a different state, when I have been sent there for training on my current employer's expense.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">


Not a new approach (see other threads). ND knew that he was committed to BYU, and he had probably told them that it was 100% and unbreakable (while they were sitting, invited, in his living room). They also knew that, if they got him to come for a visit, they had a very good chance of changing his mind, and that BYU would have no chance at rebuttle before signing day. They probably even suggested the visit with old friends angle. ND had a right to do this. Schwenkes had a responsibility to say no.
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bigbluepuma
Hey Yndian, the feathers on your Y kinda scared me for a minute there. :sick: :sick: Sure glad they weren't red. ;) ;) :P :lol: :lol: :lol:
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clemdiggitydog1
Did Apo then have responsibility to tell Heaps and BYU "no' then according to your logic?he had verballed to Texas,and yes he did it earlier in the proccess,but does that somehow make it more honorable?Kona also changed his mind,if you all are right,before the books had closed on the final decision,so how's that make him an HC violator and Apo the good guy?ya,i'm glad we got Apo,and sad we may have missed on Kona,but thems the breaks in college FB recruiting!it will work out and Kona"s decision is his,and his dad is right to have his back.you guys really rather his dad called him 'lying scum'so we can all feel better about it?
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clemdiggitydog1
i think that all recruits should honor their original pledge,but look how we all cheered when Apo,albeit earlier in the process, de-comitted from UT and came over to our side.he had given a pledge at that point to UT,and hadn't signed his LOI yet,just as Kona had not when he de-comitted from us[if its a done deal that he's gone].it's the nature of the beast, the realpolitik of college FB.
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clemdiggitydog1
bigbluepuma wrote:
Good article, and this makes sense to me. I understand why Bronco pulled the schollie, if this is in fact why. I still do not like it if he used the HC to question integrity, though. Just pull it without doing that.



I did find it interesting that Harmon insinuated that Bronco got Te'o his spot at UW. Especially since so many here have blamed Te'o for the Jamora loss, and are trying to pin the Schwenke defection on Te'o as well.


Why? The HC is foremost with Bronco. He wants recruits to think about it in the decisions they make. He didn't tell Kona that he was letting 10,000,000 Members of the church down.

nigh on.it was just a different weapon with which to bludgeon him.
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bigbluepuma
clemdiggitydog1 wrote:
Did Apo then have responsibility to tell Heaps and BYU "no' then according to your logic?he had verballed to Texas,and yes he did it earlier in the proccess,but does that somehow make it more honorable?Kona also changed his mind,if you all are right,before the books had closed on the final decision,so how's that make him an HC violator and Apo the good guy?ya,i'm glad we got Apo,and sad we may have missed on Kona,but thems the breaks in college FB recruiting!it will work out and Kona"s decision is his,and his dad is right to have his back.you'd really rather his dad called him 'lying scum'so you can feel better about it?


I know that you have read and commented on some of these threads. Do you pick and choose what you want to see take from what I have said? you know that I have said that these kids have a right to change their minds, and that Apo had rightfully de-committed from Texas. Kona's team mate also changed his mind. I didn't have a problem with that (although I would like to have seen him play at BYU as well). I wouldn't have had a problem with kona de-committing earlier, or not so much with him tripping earlier ( although I think it is pretty clear that Bronco has told the commits from the start that if they did so, they would lose their schollie). He even had the right to de-commit late. That happens, even though I don't think it is fair when someone has counted on your promise. My problem, as I have made pretty clear in these threads, is 1.) going when it is too late for Bronco to make adjustments, after he turned other recruits away for lack of schollies, and 2.) the deceitfulness fo the whole thing. I don't believe for a minute that Bronco's stand was a surprise to him or his father. I don't believe that this trip was as innocent as they claim. I don't believe that he was as committed as he claimed, or he would have considered bronco's position a LOT more important.

I think that Schwenkes' comments, no matter what the timeline, were very revealing about how enammered they are with ND. I think that Bronco could see that as well, and had every right to demand that he not make the trip. If he still felt that it was that important to go to ND, then he should have de-committed, not make Bronco out to be the bad guy, because going was blatantly thumbing his nose at Bronco.



His dad having his back doesn'mean lying for him, which it appears to me he did. His story was very different according to whom he was talking to.
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Mars
bam wrote:
BYU is different than Texas. BYU's commitments are always honored.

Seriously. It's like those who leave the LDS Church, who say "well I was <insert religion> when you baptized me, and you didn't have a problem with me leaving my church then, but now all of a sudden you do just because it's the Mormon church I'm leaving?" Apples to oranges. Very bad argument.
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bigbluepuma
clemdiggitydog1 wrote:
i think that all recruits should honor their original pledge,but look how we all cheered when Apo,albeit earlier in the process, de-comitted from UT and came over to our side.he had given a pledge at that point to UT,and hadn't signed his LOI yet,just as Kona had not when he de-comitted from us[if its a done deal that he's gone].it's the nature of the beast, the realpolitik of college FB.


If you still can't see the difference in the two situations, then you must be dead stoned. :skeptic:
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