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Why does Bronco make comments like this?

by jonnylingo · 2/4/2010

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snoscythe
Apo verballed to Texas on 3/1/09 after going to Junior Day at Texas. This was after he took an unofficial visit to BYU in February of last year, so he had seen the BYU campus etc. before he ever committed to Texas. He then decommitted from Texas and verballed to BYU on 6/4/09. He took his official visit to BYU 12/11/09. Apo did nothing that violates Bronco's stated policy from day one--once you give your verbal commitment to BYU, if you take an official visit or host a head coach of another school in your home your scholarship will be pulled. Apo did not have a coach in his home or take an official visit to another school while committed to Texas.



The difference is that Schwenke violated terms of an offer--you can have your scholarship if you don't do the following. Apo backed out on his own after Texas started waffling, telling him they might not have a scholarship for him after all once they got commitments for two top-10 receivers after Apo committed. I don't think Bronco has ever told someone "You can't change your mind." What he has said is "If you are going to commit to BYU, we expect a higher level of commitment than other schools, so make damn sure you really want this." Your Apo/Schwenke analysis assumes that Mack Brown expected the same level of commitment as Bronco.



As far as the Honor Code comments go, find me a quote where Bronco made vague hints about the Honor Code. I don't read "failures within the program" as being an Honor Code indictment--that would be a failure at the greater institution rather than simply within the program. The history of the wafflers at BYU proves his point--a few have come to BYU in the end, but none have made any noteworthy contributions on the field.



The only HC comments I have heard have been from McKay Schwenke--paraphrasing comments Bronco made in a private conversation between a recruit and coach, not comments made to fans or media. I don't think they were given "because that's what the fanbase wants to hear" and I doubt he was making any vague hints. He was telling a kid, "I told you before you committed it had to be 100% and that if you went on an official trip I would yank your scholarship. If you can't keep that simple promise, how can we trust you to live the other promises you will have to make to come here like the Honor Code?" Again, private conversation, reasonable concern. There's more to the Honor Code than sex, drugs, alcohol, knee-length shorts, and shaving. Hard to fault a coach for calling a promise-breaker out in a private conversation on it. It was McKay Schwenke, not Bronco, who decided to make the Honor Code a public issue.
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AmmonCougar1
Wickchad84087 wrote:
I think Bronco does it because that's what the fanbase wants to hear. That's the only real issue I see with him. He's a great coach, and knows how to win at BYU. It's the coddling of the BYU fans that drives me nuts. (yes ... like a steering wheel on the front of me pants!) LOL.


Does coddling the fans include calling them ignorant and uneducated about football? It has seemed like Bronco has actually had an antigonistic relationship with the fans this past season. I would guess that Bronco drops lines about recruits that go elsewhere not being able to meet the honor code to plant seeds for future recruiting. Same thing for saying these dropped recruits don't end up going on missions. He probably uses that whole shpeal in his recruiting talks (especially with parents). Don't know how effective it is, but it seemed to work this year...


I love Bronco as a coach with fantastic priorities as much as the next BYU fan but I've NEVER felt the least bit 'coddled' by anything he has said. If anything I have felt more frustration for his masterful coachspeak because he's so consistent.



Go Cougs!!!

J. Child

Ammon, ID
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Guest
sno has made an absolutely beautiful summary of the whole situation. Everyone would be wise to read it and learn from it.



Great job, sno.
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craigoscarson
ttexastim wrote:
So I got a question for y'all. Did Apo pay BYU a visit after giving a verbal to Texas? I read that on my site, and it makes it seem very hypocritical for Bronco to let that happen, then take the scholarship away from Schwenky. However, I'm not sure if it's true, so I figured I'd ask y'all.


I'm sure an outsider would see BYU football fans as Bronco worshippers (much like SEC fans see Florida fans as Urban worshippers etc) the twist is that we're also a church school with a hyper religious head coach like Bronco. But dont' get it twisted, just because a lot of us agree that Broncos recruiting philosophy works, doesn't mean that he's perfect or that every move he makes is perfect (I'm still upset about the 08-09 Utah game because I firmly believe if Harvey had gotten the ball 20 more times that we win- they could not stop him and Max was wayyy off that day- ultimately stuff like that falls on the head coach... it was painfully obvious that Utah could no stop Harvey that day)



Bronco is loyal to BYU, his only concern is loyalty to BYU; as it should be. It's not his job to gauge loyalty to other schools. What he's looking for is a good fit at BYU. (do you want to be at BYU, can you handle the academics and the honor code, etc. etc.)

Why should he care about commitment to another school if he sees a kid as a good fit? And why should he be loyal to a kid that shows that he's not a good fit and doesn't want to be there?

You don't think that (particularly the LDS faithful that go to church with Kona, etc. etc.) call/email Paul Tidwell and others when a kid that BYU is recruiting has been drinking, etc. etc. etc. LDS recruits (especially) don't exist in a vaccuum and these coaches know more about their personal lives, etc. than we'll ever know.



When I helped do hoops recruiting at UMKC, I'd talk to principals, teachers, parents, teammates, random people in the stands... The scariest (and one of the most interesting) person I ever met in my life was during recruiting trips watching AAU games

http://espn.go.com/magazine/vol5no03rush.html

http://espn.go.com/magazine/guff_20020128.html



It's recruiters jobs to get dirt. (which is even more amazing when guys like the felons at tennessee and florida get busted... the coaches knew about this type of behavior before they ever enrolled in school)



Just because it doesn't become public knowledge, doesn't mean that Bronco and co. don't know about these kids and their activities. (I'm sure know you that Coach Boylen was aware of Marshall Hendersons high school issues with marijuana etc.)



Bronco has learned the hard way too. His philosophy on recruiting has evolved during his tenure here. Guys like Bernard Afutiti, Jesse Taufi, Shiloah Teo, Ryan Kessman, etc. have really changed his style (all for different reasons)



One minor example that 99% of BYU fans dont' know about is that Drew Philips has a girlfriend that he's nuts about (maybe even a little overboard attached) she goes to a different high school and will not be attending BYU.....there were some serious concerns about how homesick Drew would get (if you're facebook friends with him or have ever chatted with him, it doesn't take long to realize that BYU will test how homesick he might get). If you dont' think that Bronco had to gauge and address that potential issue, you'd be wrong. (and Cincy would have been a whole lot closer to come)



Schwenke never bothered to make his official trip to BYU even though it would have been free (and fun) and then waited til the very last minute (when BYU had overcommitted schollies) to make his intentions known... Apo made 6-7 trips to Provo since last summer and most on his own dime.... you tell me who was loyal. Brandon Bourbon shopped himself all over the place, gave a verbal to Missouri on his trip, a committment to Stanford, and kept close to BYU once we had offerred him, though never made a trip to Provo when invited. He later inquired into availability of scholarships at BYU and Bronco told him there wasn't one... why? Josh Quezada made sure that Bronco and Co. knew who the right fit was.2 days before signing day, Bourbon commits to Kansas and Stanford loses his services.... tell me how Bronco doesn't look like a genius there...



Texas has an interesting recruiting philosophy, they offer once, if you don't accept within a short period of time, they usually dont' offer again; so kids that like Texas but really wouldn't mind looking elsewhere do exactly what Apo did (and if you're a player in Texas, YOU KNOW THAT THIS IS HOW TEXAS OPERATES). Texas overcommits by 10-15 in the summer before the football season for that very reason. But once you decommit, 99% of the time, Texas has already filled your slot and doesn't pursue you; exactly what happened with Apo, there were never strong overtures from the Longhorns after that, they had alread gotten 3 other 3-5 star receiver commits.



Bottom line, is that Bronco is doing it the right way... to leave the future of a program in limbo on February 3rd to see what guys will come and what guys won't is just too hard on a program that also has to juggle missions and the honor code. Whether we field .500 teams or national championship squads, it makes no sense for BYU to roll the dice on Feb 3rd; it's just not a good fit for this program. It works for the glam schools like USC and Florida because of the glam players they recruit and their low academic and social standards. For the most part if BYU has to wait til the last minute for an athlete, they lose out so why even bother?
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northerncougar
ttexastim wrote:
So I got a question for y'all. Did Apo pay BYU a visit after giving a verbal to Texas? I read that on my site, and it makes it seem very hypocritical for Bronco to let that happen, then take the scholarship away from Schwenky. However, I'm not sure if it's true, so I figured I'd ask y'all.


Hey tripleT its good to see you here again.



Question for you: Why is pulling a scholarship from someone a hypocritical thing? He never said that he couldn't come to BYU, just that if he chose to take a trip to another school that his scholarship would be pulled. Nothing wrong with changing your mind, but be prepared for the consequences of those actions.



You are making the false assumption that any player that comes to BYU after they have committed to another school does so with Bronco looking the other way. If it has ever happened, I haven't heard anything about it. How many players take a visit to BYU after they have verbally committed to another school? None that I know of.



I am assuming "on my site" meant a Utah site. Glad you came on here to ask the question, because very rarely is the truth about BYU found on "other" sites. Extremely rarely actually.
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ttexastim
northerncougar wrote:
So I got a question for y'all. Did Apo pay BYU a visit after giving a verbal to Texas? I read that on my site, and it makes it seem very hypocritical for Bronco to let that happen, then take the scholarship away from Schwenky. However, I'm not sure if it's true, so I figured I'd ask y'all.


Hey tripleT its good to see you here again.



Question for you: Why is pulling a scholarship from someone a hypocritical thing? He never said that he couldn't come to BYU, just that if he chose to take a trip to another school that his scholarship would be pulled. Nothing wrong with changing your mind, but be prepared for the consequences of those actions.



You are making the false assumption that any player that comes to BYU after they have committed to another school does so with Bronco looking the other way. If it has ever happened, I haven't heard anything about it. How many players take a visit to BYU after they have verbally committed to another school? None that I know of.



I am assuming "on my site" meant a Utah site. Glad you came on here to ask the question, because very rarely is the truth about BYU found on "other" sites. Extremely rarely actually.


The hypocrisy would only come into play, if Apo paid an official visit to BYU while verballed to Texas. SNO layed out the timeline and this is not the case. No hypocrisy on what his statement was. This was why I asked. Now, Craig claims that Apo took many trips on his own dime starting last summer, and so it is possible that he took an unofficial trip (on his own dime as craig said) while committed to Texas. This is getting into shades of grey though.



Kona is a great example of a kid who verballed to another school, and then dropped that comittment to go to BYU. Bronco did not cause this. Heaps and Momma Apo seem to have helped to swing him away from Texas. Bronco didn't look the other way and he also didn't encourage Apo to keep his previous commitment, instead he said that Apo was coming to BYU for the right reasons. This is where fans will all read different things into it. Bottomline ... Bronco is a coach, and is trying to do his job. No problem with that at all.
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BYULV
changing your mind during the recruiting process is not the same if you are talking about someone changing their mind (or looking around) 8 months before signing day versus 8 days before signing day. I don't know if it is any different in Bronco's mind, but in my mind a verbal commitment in June is not as strong as a verbal committment 6 months later.
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craigoscarson
ttexastim wrote:
ttexastim wrote:
So I got a question for y'all. Did Apo pay BYU a visit after giving a verbal to Texas? I read that on my site, and it makes it seem very hypocritical for Bronco to let that happen, then take the scholarship away from Schwenky. However, I'm not sure if it's true, so I figured I'd ask y'all.


Hey tripleT its good to see you here again.



Question for you: Why is pulling a scholarship from someone a hypocritical thing? He never said that he couldn't come to BYU, just that if he chose to take a trip to another school that his scholarship would be pulled. Nothing wrong with changing your mind, but be prepared for the consequences of those actions.



You are making the false assumption that any player that comes to BYU after they have committed to another school does so with Bronco looking the other way. If it has ever happened, I haven't heard anything about it. How many players take a visit to BYU after they have verbally committed to another school? None that I know of.



I am assuming "on my site" meant a Utah site. Glad you came on here to ask the question, because very rarely is the truth about BYU found on "other" sites. Extremely rarely actually.


The hypocrisy would only come into play, if Apo paid an official visit to BYU while verballed to Texas. SNO layed out the timeline and this is not the case. No hypocrisy on what his statement was. This was why I asked. Now, Craig claims that Apo took many trips on his own dime starting last summer, and so it is possible that he took an unofficial trip (on his own dime as craig said) while committed to Texas. This is getting into shades of grey though.



Kona is a great example of a kid who verballed to another school, and then dropped that comittment to go to BYU. Bronco did not cause this. Heaps and Momma Apo seem to have helped to swing him away from Texas. Bronco didn't look the other way and he also didn't encourage Apo to keep his previous commitment, instead he said that Apo was coming to BYU for the right reasons. This is where fans will all read different things into it. Bottomline ... Bronco is a coach, and is trying to do his job. No problem with that at all.


Keep in mind that it's impossible to discuss Apos situation without understanding how Texas does their scholarship offers. During Jr. day and during the summer, they give you an offer and then give you a ridiculously short timeline to accept (like 48 hours) -- the problem with this, is that Texas will then go after more 4-5 star guys and often drop kids that they had offered earlier --

this lends itself to kids taking the offer and then shopping themselves after.

If you're a high school coach in Texas, you're more than familiar with UT and Oklahomas recruiting methods and I'm sure Ross was told, "take the offer , it might not come again and see what's out there." Ross did that, but then explored BYU more and more and made the decision.

Reportedly Ross had been to several Longhorns camps, met Mack Brown, etc. and was quite familiar with UT football. So he really knew what he was chosing between.



IN the Schwenke case, the kid didn't even bother to take his free official trip to Provo; yet 3/4 of the Polys on this forum talk about how kids jump at the chance to "get off the rock", we have no idea how many other overtures, phone calls, etc that Kona did not return, etc. etc. but then he jumps at a chance to go to ND "with a friend" amidst all sorts of disinformation.... and then signs with them. Now imagine if Kona and dad had been honest with Bronco 3-4 months ago; BYU then tells him that if a guy like Heimuli is willing to come to BYU and if Kona isn't 100% that they'd then give their schollie to Heimuli instead... Of course Bronco pulled the scholarship, and personally it probably wasnt' soon enough, but how do you blame Bronco and the coaching staff for that one? When they commit to a kid, they expect the same commitment and until the time that Kona took that trip, their commitment to him superceded even considering giving Heimuli his schollie.



I have a hard time understanding how Apo and Schwenke's situation are even remotely close considering the timing, the investment in communication with BYU, etc. etc.



Apo never blamed Texas for the switch and Apo had explored both schools quite extensively. He took the offer when texas offered it very very early in the process and then changed his mind as a result of the #1 prep quarterback in the nationm, Jake Heaps, finally making his decision to attend BYU which occurred many weeks after Apo had accepted at Texas.



Schwenke not only blamed BYU for the ND situation, but never bothered to even take his trip to Provo. He's the posterchild for lack of commitment.
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northerncougar
ttexastim wrote:
ttexastim wrote:
So I got a question for y'all. Did Apo pay BYU a visit after giving a verbal to Texas? I read that on my site, and it makes it seem very hypocritical for Bronco to let that happen, then take the scholarship away from Schwenky. However, I'm not sure if it's true, so I figured I'd ask y'all.


Hey tripleT its good to see you here again.



Question for you: Why is pulling a scholarship from someone a hypocritical thing? He never said that he couldn't come to BYU, just that if he chose to take a trip to another school that his scholarship would be pulled. Nothing wrong with changing your mind, but be prepared for the consequences of those actions.



You are making the false assumption that any player that comes to BYU after they have committed to another school does so with Bronco looking the other way. If it has ever happened, I haven't heard anything about it. How many players take a visit to BYU after they have verbally committed to another school? None that I know of.



I am assuming "on my site" meant a Utah site. Glad you came on here to ask the question, because very rarely is the truth about BYU found on "other" sites. Extremely rarely actually.


The hypocrisy would only come into play, if Apo paid an official visit to BYU while verballed to Texas. SNO layed out the timeline and this is not the case. No hypocrisy on what his statement was. This was why I asked. Now, Craig claims that Apo took many trips on his own dime starting last summer, and so it is possible that he took an unofficial trip (on his own dime as craig said) while committed to Texas. This is getting into shades of grey though.



Kona is a great example of a kid who verballed to another school, and then dropped that comittment to go to BYU. Bronco did not cause this. Heaps and Momma Apo seem to have helped to swing him away from Texas. Bronco didn't look the other way and he also didn't encourage Apo to keep his previous commitment, instead he said that Apo was coming to BYU for the right reasons. This is where fans will all read different things into it. Bottomline ... Bronco is a coach, and is trying to do his job. No problem with that at all.


craigoscarson laid out the details much better than I can. I agree with him that Schwenke and Apo aren't even remotely the same. Read craig's comments for clarification.



You misrepresent Bronco's stance by saying that he didn't discourage Apo from keeping his previous commitment. How do you know that? His lack of publicly calling for Apo to keep his commitment to Texas doesn't mean he didn't. Are you expecting Bronco to issue a press release calling for Apo to not consider BYU because he verbally committed to another school? Unless you know Bronco personally I am calling you out on that statement.



The funny thing for me about the hypocrisy accusation from Utah fans (and yes, I hear it all the time) is that it is so funny to watch them waiting for anything to happen so they can pull that card and wave it around like a badge of honor for them. I have never seen a rival fan base so worried about their rival. It is hilarious to watch. The week before the Utah-TCU game a Utah fan in my office was saying how he hopes they don't lose worse than BYU did. Another guy in the office called him out saying it was so typical of Utah fans that they are always worried about BYU. The ute got frustrated and said "We aren't worried about BYU, we have had two undefeated seasons, and won two BCS games!" The other guy said, "Exactly my point. If your team has been so good in the recent past, why do you even care about BYU?" As the ute sat down with nothing to say, it was funny and a little embarrassing to watch. This type of scene has been something I have been watching for years.
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snoscythe
northerncougar wrote:
northerncougar wrote:
So I got a question for y'all. Did Apo pay BYU a visit after giving a verbal to Texas? I read that on my site, and it makes it seem very hypocritical for Bronco to let that happen, then take the scholarship away from Schwenky. However, I'm not sure if it's true, so I figured I'd ask y'all.


Hey tripleT its good to see you here again.



Question for you: Why is pulling a scholarship from someone a hypocritical thing? He never said that he couldn't come to BYU, just that if he chose to take a trip to another school that his scholarship would be pulled. Nothing wrong with changing your mind, but be prepared for the consequences of those actions.



You are making the false assumption that any player that comes to BYU after they have committed to another school does so with Bronco looking the other way. If it has ever happened, I haven't heard anything about it. How many players take a visit to BYU after they have verbally committed to another school? None that I know of.



I am assuming "on my site" meant a Utah site. Glad you came on here to ask the question, because very rarely is the truth about BYU found on "other" sites. Extremely rarely actually.


The hypocrisy would only come into play, if Apo paid an official visit to BYU while verballed to Texas. SNO layed out the timeline and this is not the case. No hypocrisy on what his statement was. This was why I asked. Now, Craig claims that Apo took many trips on his own dime starting last summer, and so it is possible that he took an unofficial trip (on his own dime as craig said) while committed to Texas. This is getting into shades of grey though.



Kona is a great example of a kid who verballed to another school, and then dropped that comittment to go to BYU. Bronco did not cause this. Heaps and Momma Apo seem to have helped to swing him away from Texas. Bronco didn't look the other way and he also didn't encourage Apo to keep his previous commitment, instead he said that Apo was coming to BYU for the right reasons. This is where fans will all read different things into it. Bottomline ... Bronco is a coach, and is trying to do his job. No problem with that at all.


craigoscarson laid out the details much better than I can. I agree with him that Schwenke and Apo aren't even remotely the same. Read craig's comments for clarification.



You misrepresent Bronco's stance by saying that he didn't discourage Apo from keeping his previous commitment. How do you know that? His lack of publicly calling for Apo to keep his commitment to Texas doesn't mean he didn't. Are you expecting Bronco to issue a press release calling for Apo to not consider BYU because he verbally committed to another school? Unless you know Bronco personally I am calling you out on that statement.



The funny thing for me about the hypocrisy accusation from Utah fans (and yes, I hear it all the time) is that it is so funny to watch them waiting for anything to happen so they can pull that card and wave it around like a badge of honor for them. I have never seen a rival fan base so worried about their rival. It is hilarious to watch. The week before the Utah-TCU game a Utah fan in my office was saying how he hopes they don't lose worse than BYU did. Another guy in the office called him out saying it was so typical of Utah fans that they are always worried about BYU. The ute got frustrated and said "We aren't worried about BYU, we have had two undefeated seasons, and won two BCS games!" The other guy said, "Exactly my point. If your team has been so good in the recent past, why do you even care about BYU?" As the ute sat down with nothing to say, it was funny and a little embarrassing to watch. This type of scene has been something I have been watching for years.


I'm pretty sure ttexastim was pretty much conceding the point. No sense in piling on.
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bengel
One other possible factor distinguishing Apo from Schwenke is something I saw elsewhere, but can't verify because I don't have a membership. According to the source, the telephone call between Bronco and Schwenke occurred when Bronco was in Hawaii for a scheduled visit. The Schwenke's phoned from the airport, saying they were on their way to ND and asking Bronco to reschedule his visit. Outrageous if true, needing clear refutation if not. Can someone here please verify?



http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=338&f=2511&t=5572559&stm=71503465
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jonnylingo
snoscythe wrote:

The only HC comments I have heard have been from McKay Schwenke--paraphrasing comments Bronco made in a private conversation between a recruit and coach, not comments made to fans or media. "I told you before you committed it had to be 100% and that if you went on an official trip I would yank your scholarship. If you can't keep that simple promise, how can we trust you to live the other promises you will have to make to come here like the Honor Code?" It was McKay Schwenke, not Bronco, who decided to make the Honor Code a public issue.


YOu just said it yourself. You say he didn't say it but then you say this: " If you can't keep that simple promise, how can we trust you to live the other promises you will have to make to come here like the Honor Code?" That is exactly what Bronco did and is doing here. He is comparing living up to your verbal commitment to play at byu before signing day to a commitment to keep the honor code.



THAT IS STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are completely different. You can't compare them. I see Bronco's point but its pure manipulation. You can't compare the two and to do so is intellectually dishonest. I don't see how you can make this point without seeing that. Not drinking and having premarital sex is not the same as not shopping around after you get a big offer from a nationally recognized program. Yes, he was waffling on his verbal commit and testing the waters elsewhere, but this CANNOT be compared to waffling on violating the honor code like teo and others did.



Did bronco have a right to yank his scholarship once kona was being dishonest about his commitment to BYU? Yes, but to manipulate him and use the honor code against him in trying to keep him at BYU is not right either.



Just my opinion. I understand some disagree.



Plus, if Bronco wants to use that logic with Kona he should use it with Apo if he truly believes it. Its not different. Apo verbally committed to Texas. Then when 'tempation' came his way he waffled and went somewhere else. Why is it that Bronco doesn't question Apo's ability to live the honor code, his commitment to live it when temptation comes by. He doesn't and he doesn't because that logice used by him trying to get kona to stay doesn't make sense and it was just trying to get kona to stay. He was being a coach trying to land a recruit.
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snoscythe
jonnylingo wrote:

The only HC comments I have heard have been from McKay Schwenke--paraphrasing comments Bronco made in a private conversation between a recruit and coach, not comments made to fans or media. "I told you before you committed it had to be 100% and that if you went on an official trip I would yank your scholarship. If you can't keep that simple promise, how can we trust you to live the other promises you will have to make to come here like the Honor Code?" It was McKay Schwenke, not Bronco, who decided to make the Honor Code a public issue.


YOu just said it yourself. You say he didn't say it but then you say this: " If you can't keep that simple promise, how can we trust you to live the other promises you will have to make to come here like the Honor Code?" That is exactly what Bronco did and is doing here. He is comparing living up to your verbal commitment to play at byu before signing day to a commitment to keep the honor code.



THAT IS STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are completely different. You can't compare them. I see Bronco's point but its pure manipulation. You can't compare the two and to do so is intellectually dishonest. I don't see how you can make this point without seeing that. Not drinking and having premarital sex is not the same as not shopping around after you get a big offer from a nationally recognized program. Yes, he was waffling on his verbal commit and testing the waters elsewhere, but this CANNOT be compared to waffling on violating the honor code like teo and others did.



Did bronco have a right to yank his scholarship once kona was being dishonest about his commitment to BYU? Yes, but to manipulate him and use the honor code against him in trying to keep him at BYU is not right either.



Just my opinion. I understand some disagree.



Plus, if Bronco wants to use that logic with Kona he should use it with Apo if he truly believes it. Its not different. Apo verbally committed to Texas. Then when 'tempation' came his way he waffled and went somewhere else. Why is it that Bronco doesn't question Apo's ability to live the honor code, his commitment to live it when temptation comes by. He doesn't and he doesn't because that logice used by him trying to get kona to stay doesn't make sense and it was just trying to get kona to stay. He was being a coach trying to land a recruit.


The Honor Code is about Honor. Giving your word and keeping it. It's not about sex, drinking, etc. If a kid gives his word, and then breaks it, it is absolutely within Bronco's rights to call him on it, as long as he keeps it between him and the kid. The Schwenke's were the ones who decided to make the Honor Code a public issue.



The Apo situation is absolutely different. Bronco has said "When I present a scholarship to a young man in my office and in writing in front of a young man and his parents, I make it very clear. Please do not commit or accept this offer unless you don't want to be recruited anymore. Even if the Pittsburgh Steelers come after you, you will tell them, 'I'm not interested. I'm committed to BYU.'" That is the commitment that Schwenke broke. Apo did not make a similar commitment to Mack Brown, and Texas waffled on Apo first by telling him they might not still have a scholarship for him on signing day. You can read any of Craigo's great posts on the difference if you persist in believing the two are the same.
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northerncougar
snoscythe wrote:
ttexastim wrote:
ttexastim wrote:
So I got a question for y'all. Did Apo pay BYU a visit after giving a verbal to Texas? I read that on my site, and it makes it seem very hypocritical for Bronco to let that happen, then take the scholarship away from Schwenky. However, I'm not sure if it's true, so I figured I'd ask y'all.


Hey tripleT its good to see you here again.



Question for you: Why is pulling a scholarship from someone a hypocritical thing? He never said that he couldn't come to BYU, just that if he chose to take a trip to another school that his scholarship would be pulled. Nothing wrong with changing your mind, but be prepared for the consequences of those actions.



You are making the false assumption that any player that comes to BYU after they have committed to another school does so with Bronco looking the other way. If it has ever happened, I haven't heard anything about it. How many players take a visit to BYU after they have verbally committed to another school? None that I know of.



I am assuming "on my site" meant a Utah site. Glad you came on here to ask the question, because very rarely is the truth about BYU found on "other" sites. Extremely rarely actually.


The hypocrisy would only come into play, if Apo paid an official visit to BYU while verballed to Texas. SNO layed out the timeline and this is not the case. No hypocrisy on what his statement was. This was why I asked. Now, Craig claims that Apo took many trips on his own dime starting last summer, and so it is possible that he took an unofficial trip (on his own dime as craig said) while committed to Texas. This is getting into shades of grey though.



Kona is a great example of a kid who verballed to another school, and then dropped that comittment to go to BYU. Bronco did not cause this. Heaps and Momma Apo seem to have helped to swing him away from Texas. Bronco didn't look the other way and he also didn't encourage Apo to keep his previous commitment, instead he said that Apo was coming to BYU for the right reasons. This is where fans will all read different things into it. Bottomline ... Bronco is a coach, and is trying to do his job. No problem with that at all.


craigoscarson laid out the details much better than I can. I agree with him that Schwenke and Apo aren't even remotely the same. Read craig's comments for clarification.



You misrepresent Bronco's stance by saying that he didn't discourage Apo from keeping his previous commitment. How do you know that? His lack of publicly calling for Apo to keep his commitment to Texas doesn't mean he didn't. Are you expecting Bronco to issue a press release calling for Apo to not consider BYU because he verbally committed to another school? Unless you know Bronco personally I am calling you out on that statement.



The funny thing for me about the hypocrisy accusation from Utah fans (and yes, I hear it all the time) is that it is so funny to watch them waiting for anything to happen so they can pull that card and wave it around like a badge of honor for them. I have never seen a rival fan base so worried about their rival. It is hilarious to watch. The week before the Utah-TCU game a Utah fan in my office was saying how he hopes they don't lose worse than BYU did. Another guy in the office called him out saying it was so typical of Utah fans that they are always worried about BYU. The ute got frustrated and said "We aren't worried about BYU, we have had two undefeated seasons, and won two BCS games!" The other guy said, "Exactly my point. If your team has been so good in the recent past, why do you even care about BYU?" As the ute sat down with nothing to say, it was funny and a little embarrassing to watch. This type of scene has been something I have been watching for years.


I'm pretty sure ttexastim was pretty much conceding the point. No sense in piling on.




Unfortunately, not completely. He threw in the potential grey area because of when Apo might have made some trips. Still some wiggle room to jab a little.
J
jonnylingo
snoscythe wrote:
snoscythe wrote:

The only HC comments I have heard have been from McKay Schwenke--paraphrasing comments Bronco made in a private conversation between a recruit and coach, not comments made to fans or media. "I told you before you committed it had to be 100% and that if you went on an official trip I would yank your scholarship. If you can't keep that simple promise, how can we trust you to live the other promises you will have to make to come here like the Honor Code?" It was McKay Schwenke, not Bronco, who decided to make the Honor Code a public issue.


YOu just said it yourself. You say he didn't say it but then you say this: " If you can't keep that simple promise, how can we trust you to live the other promises you will have to make to come here like the Honor Code?" That is exactly what Bronco did and is doing here. He is comparing living up to your verbal commitment to play at byu before signing day to a commitment to keep the honor code.



THAT IS STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are completely different. You can't compare them. I see Bronco's point but its pure manipulation. You can't compare the two and to do so is intellectually dishonest. I don't see how you can make this point without seeing that. Not drinking and having premarital sex is not the same as not shopping around after you get a big offer from a nationally recognized program. Yes, he was waffling on his verbal commit and testing the waters elsewhere, but this CANNOT be compared to waffling on violating the honor code like teo and others did.



Did bronco have a right to yank his scholarship once kona was being dishonest about his commitment to BYU? Yes, but to manipulate him and use the honor code against him in trying to keep him at BYU is not right either.



Just my opinion. I understand some disagree.



Plus, if Bronco wants to use that logic with Kona he should use it with Apo if he truly believes it. Its not different. Apo verbally committed to Texas. Then when 'tempation' came his way he waffled and went somewhere else. Why is it that Bronco doesn't question Apo's ability to live the honor code, his commitment to live it when temptation comes by. He doesn't and he doesn't because that logice used by him trying to get kona to stay doesn't make sense and it was just trying to get kona to stay. He was being a coach trying to land a recruit.


The Honor Code is about Honor. Giving your word and keeping it. It's not about sex, drinking, etc. If a kid gives his word, and then breaks it, it is absolutely within Bronco's rights to call him on it, as long as he keeps it between him and the kid. The Schwenke's were the ones who decided to make the Honor Code a public issue.



The Apo situation is absolutely different. Bronco has said "When I present a scholarship to a young man in my office and in writing in front of a young man and his parents, I make it very clear. Please do not commit or accept this offer unless you don't want to be recruited anymore. Even if the Pittsburgh Steelers come after you, you will tell them, 'I'm not interested. I'm committed to BYU.'" That is the commitment that Schwenke broke. Apo did not make a similar commitment to Mack Brown, and Texas waffled on Apo first by telling him they might not still have a scholarship for him on signing day. You can read any of Craigo's great posts on the difference if you persist in believing the two are the same.


Schwenke's maybe made it public, but bronco is the one who made it a recruiting issue and tried to use as a tool against him try and get him to stay at byu. It like saying if you really are capable of being righteous and keeping the commandment, you wouldn't be tripping to notre dame. I think its hard to argue that in bronco's comments he wasn't referring to the more significant parts of the honor in terms of getting kicked of the team.



Apo's situation is obviously different but the same honor code logic bronco was using aginst kona to get him to stay at byu applies can be applied just the same with the situation with Apo. its hard to argue against that unless you are saying there are different 'degrees' of verbal commitments, some of which if broken don't mean that person could live the honor code and some which do? That position is a tenuous one. Bronco making that statement was wrong. His overall approach was right. But as a principle, comparing the person's ability to live the honor code which includes their ability to not have premarital sex, drink, cheat etc. to their ability to keep their verbal commit is just ridiculous.
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T
ttexastim
northerncougar wrote:

You misrepresent Bronco's stance by saying that he didn't discourage Apo from keeping his previous commitment. How do you know that? His lack of publicly calling for Apo to keep his commitment to Texas doesn't mean he didn't. Are you expecting Bronco to issue a press release calling for Apo to not consider BYU because he verbally committed to another school? Unless you know Bronco personally I am calling you out on that statement.


If you beleive in Bronco the prophet, then you would think that he tried to convince Apo to stay at texas and honor his verbal commitment because that was the honest thing to do. Otherwise Apo would be dishonest, and how could Bronco trust him to keep his commitments at BYU?!? If you realize that bronco is a head coach, then it's pretty easy to see that he evaluated the kid like any other who he talks with. "Why do you want to come here?" and then he feels the kid out and goes from there. It is common knowledge that a verbal is just kind of a "maybe". I don't have to know Bronco to know how he would handle that situation, and his comments on meeting with Apo relfect that. Is it normal college football recruiting? Yup. Is there anything wrong with it? Nope. Is it a little hypocritical? A tad, but it's done all across the nation and it's a good head coach that tries to keep his talent! I don't fault Bronco at all, as I've stated.



LOL. When the "Lords University" card gets put to bed, the "BYU hypocrisy" card will follow shortly. Until then, Ute fans are going to point out every time you don't live up to the higher standards you claim to follow. With greater power comes greater responsibility.



(Note that for someone laughing at Utah fans obsessing over BYU, you are the first person to mention Utah in this entire thread. Hello Kettle! :) )
M
Mars
jonnylingo wrote:
Apo's situation is obviously different but the same honor code logic bronco was using aginst kona to get him to stay at byu applies can be applied just the same with the situation with Apo.
I heard that Bronco pulled Kona's scholarship because Kona loves to drink coffee. :roll:



Who needs direct quotes to bash someone? We'll just use secondhand information from disgruntled people and pretend they're gospel. :roll: :roll:
S
snoscythe
Tim-



Again, Texas told Apo that they might not have a scholarship by the time signing day rolled around. Do you really think that honesty then requires him to honor a commitment when that commitment is 'I will enroll at your school for a scholarship'??



The difference is that the terms of BYU's offer still stood for Schwenke as they did the day he verballed--don't host coaches, don't take official visits, and qualify. The terms of Apo's offer were quickly changing--maybe a scholarship, maybe a walk-on position. Bronco yanked Schwenke's scholarship when Schwenke waffled. Apo yanked his commitment when Mack Brown waffled.



Where is the inconsistency/hypocrisy? The problem is that people are comparing Kona and Ross when the more apt comparison is Ross and Bronco.
B
bigbluepuma
It appears that Texas is to Apo as Schwenke is to BYU. That being the case, Apo has as much right to rescind his offer as Bronco has to rescind his offer. Maybe even more, because, on signing day, he could be just plain out of luck, without 25 more "recruits" to fall back on. So, why is there still a debate?
M
Mars
bigbluepuma wrote:
It appears that Texas is to Apo as Schwenke is to BYU. That being the case, Apo has as much right to rescind his offer as Bronco has to rescind his offer. Maybe even more, because, on signing day, he could be just plain out of luck, without 25 more "recruits" to fall back on. So, why is there still a debate?

Willful ignorance fueled by pride.
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