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Open Spring Practice Thoughts

by SpiffCoug · 4/10/2010

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M
Mars


1- Quezada led the RBs for the day with Unga sitting out, including an 8-yard TD run.

2- VanNoy had a whistle sack in the open practice.

3- Wilson has been injured, but is still the 3rd string TE. Mahina and Muehlmann look very good though.



As for Heaps, a redshirt makes little sense. What, are you going to sit him behind a junior Nelson and start him over a senior Nelson? Or if he went on a mission, who would start the year after Riley graduated? And would that person still be in front of Heaps on the depth chart the year Jake got back from his mission?



Those are dumb questions, because Heaps was the best QB in high school last year, and he's clearly the best QB at BYU as well. Nelson has half the yards because no one on the team can get first downs like Heaps can. Simply put, Jake keeps drives alive far better than the other two QBs, which is why he also leads in completed passes and touchdowns. But if yards, first downs, and TDs aren't all that important to you, you could always start Nelson. He would be almost as good, which seems good enough for some people to start because he is older. And older and worse is better in some people's books I guess.
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snoscythe
Mars wrote:
Nelson has half the yards because no one on the team can get first downs like Heaps can. Simply put, Jake keeps drives alive far better than the other two QBs, which is why he also leads in completed passes and touchdowns. But if yards, first downs, and TDs aren't all that important to you, you could always start Nelson. He would be almost as good, which seems good enough for some people to start because he is older. And older and worse is better in some people's books I guess.


In 11-on-11 drills, Nelson has led three more touchdown drives than Heaps. Yeah, he doesn't have as many yards passing, but when he puts the ball in the air he gets more yards on average than boy wonder. The difference is that Nelson is picking up yards and first downs with his legs while Heaps is only doing it through the air. Yards, first downs, and touchdowns matter, but you pick them up on the ground as well.



Besides, if you are only going to look at the passing numbers, what the numbers tell me is this: Nelson needs to be throwing the ball more than Nelson. The numbers say that if Nelson had as many pass attempts as Heaps, he'd have 800 yards and 10 touchdowns.



But then again, the Heaps camp will never admit this, because they are too afraid that if Nelson starts this year, Heaps won't be able to beat him out next year either, and heaven forbid we make a kid earn a starting spot by performance......and heaven forbid even more Heaps might transfer....we can't be losing our second-best quarterback like that.
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SpiffCoug
Mars wrote:


As for Heaps, a redshirt makes little sense. What, are you going to sit him behind a junior Nelson and start him over a senior Nelson? Or if he went on a mission, who would start the year after Riley graduated? And would that person still be in front of Heaps on the depth chart the year Jake got back from his mission?

There is plenty of sense behind redshirting Heaps. If you RS Heaps you are basically sitting him for two years to learn. I don't see what's wrong with that. Are those in the pro-Heaps camp unable to comprehend that Heaps can still get better and that he could even get better while not playing? If you RS Heaps, you don't plan on starting him until he is a RS Sophomore and then he'll have three years to start and one year to get mop-up duty as the backup.



I still haven't seen anything from Heaps or Nelson or heard/read any argument where there would be no benefit to Heaps RSing.
B
BigCougsFan
Who shined the most out there... Offense or defense???



As for the Heaps/Nelson debate... Here are the numbers for all of spring scrimmage. Heaps had twice as many reps than the runner up.



Riley Nelson 29-of-51 for 389 yards and 5 touchdowns

James Lark 27-of-46 for 253 yards and no touchdowns

Jake Heaps 62-of-105 for 774 yards and 7 touchdowns



BUT... Not twice as many TD's unfortunately.
S
snoscythe
BigCougsFan wrote:
Who shined the most out there... Offense or defense???



As for the Heaps/Nelson debate... Here are the numbers for all of spring scrimmage. Heaps had twice as many reps than the runner up.



Riley Nelson 29-of-51 for 389 yards and 5 touchdowns

James Lark 27-of-46 for 253 yards and no touchdowns

Jake Heaps 62-of-105 for 774 yards and 7 touchdowns



BUT... Not twice as many TD's unfortunately.


Those numbers were already posted earlier in the thread. BTW, Heaps did not have twice as many reps. He threw the ball twice as much, but he and Nelson took about the same number of reps. The difference is that Nelson runs the ball alot more than Heaps.
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B
BigCougsFan
snoscythe wrote:
Those numbers were already posted earlier in the thread.


Looks like I missed those... Oh well.
C
craigoscarson
We're making too much out of the spring numbers. No O-line, inexperienced receivers, zero experienced linebackers, injuries, and limited contact; missing about 60,000 fans in the stands.



The wise man sees the value of a redshirt for Heaps; the question is not if Heaps is going to be a star, but if Nelson can be a competent winner. Nelson had the chance to take the job in the spring but didn't. Heaps had the chance to lose the job in the spring, and didn't. I don't think we know any more than that.



A redshirt would do wonders for Heaps if he has the right humility and understanding of the big picture. The real questions are:

1. Will Heaps actually get us more wins next season than Nelson? (I don't think so)

2. Will Heaps have enough humility and guts to accept a redshirt if it happens? (I dont' know about this)

3. Can Nelson win the support of the team and fans or will the 1st sign of adversity bring out the boo birds?



I think too many assume that if Nelson wins the job this year that Heaps waits til he's a soph to take over... There are so many variables between now and then, it's also ridiculous to speculate.

We know there's a difference between a true frosh and a redshirt frosh and Heaps certainly can physically and emotionally mature over that year. With that talent, and the right attitude, I don't see that Heaps couldn't outseat Nelson in '11...



What a redshirt does buy us is time. More time with a competent qb, and considering some of the big dogs on missions (Kaufusi etc) more time to build this last recruiting class into champions.
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SpiffCoug
craigoscarson wrote:

3. Can Nelson win the support of the team and fans or will the 1st sign of adversity bring out the boo birds?

3a. Will coaches be patient with Nelson or will they pull him mid-season and burn Heaps' RS with just a few games left?
G
gmj81
Mars wrote:

3- Wilson has been injured, but is still the 3rd string TE. Mahina and Muehlmann look very good though.


Bronco said himself yesterday that Mathews is sitting in 3rd string, not Wilson. He didn't mention Wilson at all.



It was an unfortunate thing that Wilson had EE and injury issues this spring because he may have just gotten left in the dust. He's a talent to be sure but he's going to have to work extra hard to beat out Meuhlmann and Mahina, even Mathews now. Add in the fact that we'll be getting Sampson and Holt in for fall camp and there will be even fewer reps to go around.
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craigoscarson
gmj81 wrote:

3- Wilson has been injured, but is still the 3rd string TE. Mahina and Muehlmann look very good though.


Bronco said himself yesterday that Mathews is sitting in 3rd string, not Wilson. He didn't mention Wilson at all.



It was an unfortunate thing that Wilson had EE and injury issues this spring because he may have just gotten left in the dust. He's a talent to be sure but he's going to have to work extra hard to beat out Meuhlmann and Mahina, even Mathews now. Add in the fact that we'll be getting Sampson and Holt in for fall camp and there will be even fewer reps to go around.


This is kind of the impression I'm getting; and only cemented by what I read this week in the blogs (i.e. not even naming Wilson when TEs were mentioned). I almost wonder if the coaches have decided his skills are best suited to defense and are turned off by Wilson's resistance to give it a real chance. If he wants to see the field on more than special teams, he might have to make a decision. At 6'2" his future may just be at linebacker, though his mental makeup may not get him there. With 3 freshmen and another prep all america tight end on his way home from a mission, I really do wonder what Wilsons future is with this team. Hopefully, he'll compare notes with 2 guys that have successfully made the transition from a position that they thought they were recruited to play (Pendleton and So'oto) and take the bull by the horns. Or maybe there's no story and Wilson is just hurt and he'll be fine in the fall taking quality minutes at TE.



On another note; I couldn't be happier that (regardless of which qb starts) that we have an all america quality punter on the team. I think he'll be used a lot early on.







For now, freshmen Mike Muehlmann and Devin Mahina are "dead-even" at the tight end spot, according to Mendenhall. Marcus Mathews, who broke his ankle during last Wednesday's practice was "emerging as the No. 3" tight end, Mendenhall said. "But you also know we have (freshmen) Bryan Sampson and Austin Holt coming as well. We're going to be really good at tight end, I believe. Youthful, but I think we'll have enough players."
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M
Mars
BigCougsFan wrote:
As for the Heaps/Nelson debate... Here are the numbers for all of spring scrimmage. Heaps had twice as many reps than the runner up.

Heaps and Nelson had about the same number of drives. But where Heaps would drive 80 yards for a TD throwing 7 passes, Nelson would drive 2 yards with one pass and then punt. THAT is where Heaps' additional numbers come from.



And yes, over two of the last three practices with the starting DBs pulled, Nelson had 3 passes that the receiver took 50 yards plus that make his stats look much better. But he still isn't at the same level Heaps is, and that's been apparent all Spring. Just yesterday an article came out about Heaps being the eventual starter. The media gets it because they go to practice and can see the difference. There has not and will not be an article from the media talking about Nelson looking like the eventual starter, because he can't move the offense nearly as well. No one in the know thinks Riley will get the nod at the end of Fall camp.
B
BigCougsFan
Mars wrote:
And yes, over two of the last three practices with the starting DBs pulled, Nelson had 3 passes that the receiver took 50 yards plus that make his stats look much better. But he still isn't at the same level Heaps is, and that's been apparent all Spring. Just yesterday an article came out about Heaps being the eventual starter. The media gets it because they go to practice and can see the difference. There has not and will not be an article from the media talking about Nelson looking like the eventual starter, because he can't move the offense nearly as well. No one in the know thinks Riley will get the nod at the end of Fall camp. [/color]


I'm in total agreement. Heaps should be the starter in my opinion. Unless something drastic changes between not and fall... I don't see that changing.
S
snoscythe
Mars wrote:
As for the Heaps/Nelson debate... Here are the numbers for all of spring scrimmage. Heaps had twice as many reps than the runner up.

Heaps and Nelson had about the same number of drives. But where Heaps would drive 80 yards for a TD throwing 7 passes, Nelson would drive 2 yards with one pass and then punt. THAT is where Heaps' additional numbers come from.


That criticism is only true if you are talking about 7-on-7 drills. In 11-on-11 work, Nelson sustained the longer drives and scored more touchdowns. Last I checked, we play exclusively 11-on-11 Saturdays in the Fall.



And you still haven't explained away the fact that Nelson led more touchdown drives in 11-on-11 work than Heaps. Nelson might not have thrown as many passes or touchdowns, but the offense put more points on the board once you account for rushing touchdowns.....isn't that what we're looking for?
J
jonnylingo
We will know more in fall. It is still too early. Nelson didn't do enough to be named started which says a lot about heaps as a freshman. heaps was not named as a starter either though which means nelson did enough to keep himself in the running.



we still don't have enough information to know who will be better. I think the coaches are aware of that. We will know more after fall practice.



the one good thing is that both heaps and riley have elevated their game in this competition. it will keep them working hard over the summer.



funny thing is that lark will just get better and better as well which will make fall even more difficult for the coaches. i see the only way that this decision is clear cut is if heaps just dominates come fall time. I don't see nelson getting a lot better form now until fall. he will get better but jake has been here for only a few months. he is proven to be a quick learner and it is no likely that he comes into fall practice and finally proves that he is straight up better than nelson.



we will see though. its too early to know. both mars and sno make good points in my opinion. stats are important but don't tell the whole story. if one was clearly better they would have named him starter by now for leadership and continuity purposes.
L
Lawboy
I just need to look at how Bronco describes them to tell me that Heaps already is the better QB, but Nelson is the better leader. Nelson has that edge because he is more mature, been in the system longer, RM experience and can rally the guys. I think Heaps is still the new guy, knows his place, but can step up the leadership over the summer.

I still say the rest of the team does not care who starts, so long as the guy who does helps them win. I expect Heaps to start game 1, but Nelson to get several series in. I do not think this question gets answered until game 4 or 5, and maybe not all year. Florida won a National title with a 2 QB rotation, so it can work when the styles compliment each other, as they do here.
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R
rblack
Just a thought, and I know it might be irrelevant, but I wonder how John Beck would have done in the NFL if Miami had given him 1-2 years to learn the system and learn the increased speed of the NFL game before they put him into a starting role. He was the best QB they had and yet he wasn't ready to start in the NFL.

Pulling a starting QB in favor of the next player on the depth chart can have a devastating effect on psyche of the QB that was replaced. Look at how Crowton mismanaged his talented quarterbacks and look at how it affected Beck in the NFL.

Assuming that we start Heaps and we end up having to put in Nelson due to freshman errors, we lose Heaps for 4 years. If we start Nelson and Heaps leaves, we don't need a primadonna like that. If we start Nelson and we end up having to replace him with a matured Heaps next year, we have Heaps for 4 years. If we start Nelson and he is the next Doman, we start Heaps in 2 years, he has 3 to play and we get 5 years of good leadership. I for one would not be willing to put all of my money on a true freshman, no matter how talented, coming in and performing from day one and not going through some huge growing pains in the process that costs us games. Assuming that our record would be the same this year regardless of which QB we start, I say we start Nelson. Assuming that our record will be within 1 game regardless of which QB we start, I say we start Nelson. You would have to project that we would lose at least 2 more games for me to say that it would be a good idea to start a true freshman over a QB that has been in the program for 1 year.
M
Mars
snoscythe wrote:
And you still haven't explained away the fact that Nelson led more touchdown drives in 11-on-11 work than Heaps.

Because you never provided numbers or sources to support that. All we've seen is what is quoted in this thread.
S
SpiffCoug
I didn't do an exhaustive search, but I did go back and look at byucougars.com's reports for each practice. The details were very poor and my numbers didn't add up to what Wrubbel and even BYU reported as final spring numbers here's what I found though.



Heaps: 45-76-1-529 6 TDs 141.09 rating. He also lead 2 FG drives and 3 rushing TD drives



Nelson: 20-33-0-267 5 TDs 178.57 rating. He also led 3 rushing TD drives.
B
Brayden Green
Holy cow! Apparently everyone on this thread knows Heaps and Nelson's exact mindset and all their tendencies. Speculation runs rampant, and everyone is choosing sides. Do you want to know who will win? ........



MONEY! It always has and always will be the governing principle of anything, especially college sports. In football, wins = money (support from boosters, payouts etc.). So the quarterback who will win is going to be the one that starts (or should, at least). Do you think BYU is going to just tuck it in and not be as competitive this year, or are going to ride this wave that they have started? If Nelson is the starter, it has nothing to do with Jake being ready, not being a good qb, seniority, stats, leadership, or whatever else. It means they think he will win more than Jake will with his gameplan. All this goldenboy talk and whatever else is nonsense! Let's not treat one of our own with the same verbage as those Insert Expletive Here 's up north. The coaches will pick the kid that is going to win, because it is their job if they don't. Everyone picking sides and touting their athlete as the guy, and mouthing the other one really isn't going to make a difference at the end of the day. I have an opinion of who I think will start, but at the end of the day it really doesn't matter what I think because I only know what I know handed down from other people. One very tightly scripted half speed scrimmage is not even close to enough information to pick a horse to get behind. And all the no hit practices, etc. We have no idea how Nelson will respond to actually getting hit versus Jake.



So, what I am saying is it is ok to debate what is best for our team, because that is how we choose to spend our not-so-free time. IT IS NOT OK, to slander somebody in Cougar Blue that is out there playing for us, just because we feel strongly about (redshirting, grayshirting, policy on RM's, whether or not he should go on a mission, or whatever BS you can put in here.) If Jake wins the job, then he earned it - because the system is meant to keep him from starting as a frosh, much less true frosh. If Nelson wins the job, then he beat Jake out, and earned it through age/leadership/"wheels"/preparation/talent, whatever. BYU knows what they are doing at the qb position. Look back at all the "surprise" starters like McMahon, etc. They will make the right decision for their boosters, and ultimately the fans - because without boosters, there is no team, and we can all move on to speculating about why that sucky kid is still in American Idol week after week.
M
Mars
" Heaps is right in the mix, if not the favorite to win the role. BYU's veteran players raved about their new teammate and the spring he has had.



Harvey Unga, a powerful senior running back, called Heaps a "playmaker" who is going to "flourish and become a great quarterback." Junior receiver McKay Jacobson said "the sky's the limit" for Heaps, who's got a "strong arm and good touch on the ball."



Matt Reynolds, one of the team's top offensive linemen, said he was impressed with the new quarterback's attitude.



"He's a great kid with a great personality," Reynolds. "I really enjoy having him around. I think that's how most of the guys feel about him. He's easy to talk to and has really figured out how to be a Cougar."



And most think it's only a matter of time before he's a Cougars great. "



http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/huskies/2011578581_heaps11.html
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