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Unga officially finished at BYU according to 1280 & Jay Drew

by Wickchad · 5/19/2010

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jonnylingo
snoscythe wrote:
I have to say, knowing as little as I do, I agree with the decision. They have removed football as a factor in Harvey's repentance process.



This is a young man who has been down the road before. If the violation is what most suspect, this will be Harvey's second rodeo with this problem. That is why I have suspected from day one that he would not return...the second time around is a bit sterner.



Now, when Harvey goes to talk to his bishop, he isn't trying to rush the process simply to get back into school and back onto the field.



Keep in mind that BYU has left the door open for him to come back in the Winter and finish his degree then, and with as few credits as he needs, one semester will do the trick as far as education goes.



I agree with the punishment because (a) he broke a promise he made, and (b) it is putting his eternal future ahead of the next few years.



I know the naysayers will come on here and lambast the Honor Code as being too strict or asking more than the commandments, but that is something Harvey and each person agreeing to the Honor Code should have taken into consideration before they told their ecclesiastical representative that the would keep the Honor Code rather than lamely offering it as an excuse after the fact. If it's too much or too strict, wear red.



The fact that someone might miss out on career opportunities because of a punishment they agreed to be subject to shouldn't be part of the calculus in imposing punishment--it should be part of the decision making calculus of the individual before they break their agreement. Harvey knew the risks, but he made bad decisions nonetheless. He shouldn't be able to hide behind the potential he has put in jeopardy to avoid the consequences he knew would follow.


I was waiting for this arugment. I think you miss the point. Your statements have to do with his salvation and well being. that should be church related and related to how the church deal with it in terms of his membership. whether his disfellowed, excommunicted, put on informal probation, etc. His salvation is more of an issue with his church membership.



Nobody disputes that these guys knew what they were agreeing to when they signed up. nobody disputes that he should be punished. At least for me, what I am saying is that the punishment in terms of byu, the school and his enrollment and ability to play football should not be taken away the way it was in terms of what he did. while i don't disagree with punishment and disagree with the DEGREE in which is was imposed. I just think its too harsh. that is just my opinion.



While I am disappointed, I understand why the school made the decision it did, especially if he didn't want to get married to her. From a pr standpoint at the very least it won't look good if they let him in while his girlfriend that he refuses to marry is walking around carrying his baby. it just doesn't mesh with byu and the honor code we have. i get it. I think once I heard that it made more sense to me why byu did what they did.



its a shame.
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snoscythe
hawkwing wrote:
I feel bad for Harvey, but like others have said, he made his bed, and now he has to sleep in it....


....preferably alone.
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Wickchad
To clarify my position before this turns into a gospel discussion.



I'm a non-LDS fan of BYU. Obviously my views are going to be A LOT more liberal than most. I'm not a fan of the honor code. While I agree with the majority of the standards of the LDS church and agree that those standards improve your quality of life, the honor code goes well beyond what is necessary (and maybe what should be expected of 18-22 year olds). Should people be kicked out of school for gang rape, DUI, violent assaults, burglary, the majority of crimes, cheating, yes. Any school shouldn't put up with those things.



While I don't like the honor code, it does exist and Harvey signed it. So I absolutely agree that the only person to blame is Harvey. Do I think his crime fits the punishment, no. Do I think that every player that has pre-marital sex should be kicked out of school, no.



As a former high school athlete (i.e. Uncle Rico) I can tell you that I would have given anything to play D-1 football. It drives me nuts that individuals who are gifted enough to have the opportunity to play football potentially for a living would do anything to jeopardize that. Honor code aside, if you drink or do drugs you are not enhancing your ability to play. If you are told in order to play you must abide by a certain set of rules, you abide by those rules. If you carry a gun in a night club, have dog fights, or just enjoy thug life, you are probably not going to be playing long... An elite athlete shouldn't need an honor code to realize that. Does pre-marital sex that doesn't result in an STD affect your ability to play, probably not.



Just add Harvey to the list of running backs at BYU that I would have loved to have seen what they could have done if they were able to use all of their years of eligibility...
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Cougy_Monster
PurpleReign wrote:
Is his loss a big one for your season, or is there a comparable back behind him that can get the same production?


This is a big loss for the team and he will be sorely missed....until part way through the 2nd quarter of the 1st game when it becomes apparent that we have a ton of talent to replace him.



The Cougs will barely skip a beat in transitioning to this next season.
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Cougy_Monster
Wickchad84087 wrote:
If you carry a gun in a night club, have dog fights, or just enjoy thug life, you are probably not going to be playing long... An elite athlete shouldn't need an honor code to realize that. Does pre-marital sex that doesn't result in an STD affect your ability to play, probably not.



You bring up good points and your views are probably consistent with most sports fans with good moral values. One point about LDS doctrine that helps explain why Harvey's "punishment" is so severe is that according to LDS beliefs breaking the law of chastity (extramarital sex) is second in severity only to murder (Alma 39:5). I know that sounds harsh, especially by today's sexual standards. But that's the doctrine of the Church that runs BYU.



You can't inappropriately end or create a life ( or do things similar to it) without mocking God's greatest gift to mankind.



Somehow the seriousness of sins or mistakes has gone all topsy turvy in the recent past and unfortunately even many LDS members view a DUI as much more serious than premarital sex. Those who make decisions about the Honor Code haven't flipped topsy turvy though.



Thanks for your thoughts - and keep cheering for the Cougs!
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stuckinbig10country
The normal punishment for pre-marital sex at BYU when students are asked to leave is usually missing 2 sections of classes. So, if he had not withdrawn on his own and had been dealt with by the HC office, the punishment would have been the same as what it is.



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Ddawg
jonnylingo wrote:
I can tell you that this hurts a lot. I am ticked. BYU is lame. Seriously, ruin his career over this. Is there no compassion? And spare me all the crap that I know I will get in response. They can punish him without ruining his career just fine. let him repent with his bishop, but to keep him from re enrolling in school after what he has done to this point for the football team is stupid. That is just my opinion.



I am not happy about this. It makes me annoyed to be a BYU fan. I know I know BYU is about more than football....blah blah. I got it. I understand why they did it. I just don't agree with it and think its overly extreme.


Hey J.L. - I'm with ya. I understand why - I was just hoping. I feel this whole thing can be cleared up much faster that Jan. 2011. It's all about what's in a person's heart.

:skeptic:
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HoosierCougar
I couldn't agree more with sno's post... and count me squarely in the camp of "the Honor Code didn't do this to Harvey".



Saying the HC did this to Harvey is like saying that a pitcher who can't find the strike zone with 2 outs in the bottom of the ninth and walks a guy has a gripe with the rules of baseball and the umpire for screwing up his perfect game.



Those of us who are LDS know the rules, and yet we sin. When we violate those rules there are consequences. In Harvey's case (as with all LDS BYU students), there is a requirement to be in good standing with the church for continued enrollment. There is some discretion there for Bishops, Stake Presidents and the HC office. However, less flexibility after the first offense...



I'm sad that Harvey won't line up for us in the fall. But I am infinitely more sad that he has to live this out in such a public forum.
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BigCougsFan
Who knows... Maybe Ugna looked upon a woman and had some dirty thoughts rumaging through his head. According to Christ... If you think it, it's like doing it. Just thinking it is a sin.



Not to start a fight or arguement, but is that in violation of the H.C.???



Dang... I sin all the time at the gym. Man am I screwed! I would be the worst BYU student ever!
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BoiseBYU
jonnylingo wrote:
For the record, I do think the honor code should apply to football players. we are byu, we are different, i am okay with that. What bugs me though is how hard they are coming down on him. they are ruining his career. while he made a moral mistake that also happens to violate the honor code, i don't think they should punish him by saying you can't play football, especially after what he has done for the university football wise.



what i suspect here is that they wouldn't do it because he refused to marry her. I can understand that, but it still bugs me. the church should take what actions that it feels are necessary to help him with his salvation and he should have a punishemtn for violating the honor code but not the punishment he is receiving.



long story short. honor code violation punishments should be less severe than they are. that is just my opinion though.


You say THEY are ruining his career and you appear to know what to do to help him with HIS salvation...WOW...You must be reading a different story than I and you must know a whole lot more than what I have read. What I can tell, HE is the one who took the actions to jeopardize his career not BYU and as for what is best for his salvation way to render an opinion clouded bu your selfish desire to have the best running back on the team be there this fall....I wish the best for Bro. Unga and hope he gets himself straight with the Lord. I will not pretend to know what is best or make escuses though for what he did



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CougarClaw
The punishment is not too harsh. Repentance has to be your number one goal, not qualifying to play football like you'd need to pass a D1 required class.



Thanks for some great memories, Unga.
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Mars


From a football standpoint, Harvey gained 5.2 yards per run last year. DiLuigi gained 5.5. I don't see a huge gap in talent there at all. http://www.byucougars.com/uploads/stats/football/stats.pdf



From a fan standpoint, Harvey was an easy bet for good yardage, but JJ/Quezada/Phillips will be more exciting to watch this year, because of the freshness of something new. And because of greater breakaway speed.



From a season standpoint, I saw us going 11-2 with Harvey, 9-4 without him. Unga was a Ute-killer, plain and simple. And as the Utah game goes for BYU under Bronco, so the bowl game goes.



From a personal standpoint, this may be a blessing for Harvey. He has more important things to worry about, like being a husband and a father. Good luck in the NFL! I'll be rooting for you.
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GolfDiveNCougs
This may get ME villified on here, but was anyone else a little bit relieved when you heard for sure that he wasn't going to be able to return until January, just because it would have smacked a little too much of a double-standard?



Now, none of us have a CLUE what conditions were set by his Bishop to regain his endorsement, and even if we have an educated guess, none of us have any clue what the reasons behind the Dean's decision were (or whether the Dean even had a decision to make, considering there may not even have been an endorsement). I just didn't want the situation to appear to the critical observer, or the justifying nobody-student, that "a football star" gets a free pass, so why shouldn't everybody. Yes, I personally realize that if Harvey Unga had been approved for fall semester, it would have been in accordance with the rules of the University, and whatever process was set forth to regain an ecclesiastical endorsement. It would just not have LOOKED that way to many people. And no, I don't think that's the reason Harvey wasn't readmitted for fall, but from the perspective of the University as a whole, I'm glad even the appearance of evil was, in the end, avoided.



I would LOVE to have had Harvey in the backfield this year, and I support him wholeheartedly in his future endeavors. I also hope he finds it in his heart to finish his classes to get a degree. I think that would do a lot of good for peoples' perspective of the situation.



I also believe firmly in the Honor Code. I fully concede that its implementation is betimes a little too iron-fisted for the velvet glove that covers it, but that's little fault of the actual Code. Those whose responsibility it is to determine temporal consequence for infraction of it walk a razors edge. I wouldn't want the job. It is my suspicion, however, that in the end, in the vast majority of cases, those consequences are MUCH milder than the actual infraction deserves.



The Honor Code is the one thing that separates Brigham Young University from all other universities. Most schools have some form of code of conduct. Ours is "peculiar" in that it places upon each person the committment and responsibility of living as God intends him to, as part of the experience. It truly is, in some small way, a form of consecration. Our secular education does not stand between us and our God. I'm proud of that.
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Cougy_Monster
GolfDiveNCougs wrote:
This may get ME villified on here, but was anyone else a little bit relieved when you heard for sure that he wasn't going to be able to return until January, just because it would have smacked a little too much of a double-standard?



Now, none of us have a CLUE what conditions were set by his Bishop to regain his endorsement, and even if we have an educated guess, none of us have any clue what the reasons behind the Dean's decision were (or whether the Dean even had a decision to make, considering there may not even have been an endorsement). I just didn't want the situation to appear to the critical observer, or the justifying nobody-student, that "a football star" gets a free pass, so why shouldn't everybody. Yes, I personally realize that if Harvey Unga had been approved for fall semester, it would have been in accordance with the rules of the University, and whatever process was set forth to regain an ecclesiastical endorsement. It would just not have LOOKED that way to many people. And no, I don't think that's the reason Harvey wasn't readmitted for fall, but from the perspective of the University as a whole, I'm glad even the appearance of evil was, in the end, avoided.



I would LOVE to have had Harvey in the backfield this year, and I support him wholeheartedly in his future endeavors. I also hope he finds it in his heart to finish his classes to get a degree. I think that would do a lot of good for peoples' perspective of the situation.



I also believe firmly in the Honor Code. I fully concede that its implementation is betimes a little too iron-fisted for the velvet glove that covers it, but that's little fault of the actual Code. Those whose responsibility it is to determine temporal consequence for infraction of it walk a razors edge. I wouldn't want the job. It is my suspicion, however, that in the end, in the vast majority of cases, those consequences are MUCH milder than the actual infraction deserves.



The Honor Code is the one thing that separates Brigham Young University from all other universities. Most schools have some form of code of conduct. Ours is "peculiar" in that it places upon each person the committment and responsibility of living as God intends him to, as part of the experience. It truly is, in some small way, a form of consecration. Our secular education does not stand between us and our God. I'm proud of that.


Hear Hear!



Me gusta
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Wickchad
GolfDiveNCougs wrote:
This may get ME villified on here, but was anyone else a little bit relieved when you heard for sure that he wasn't going to be able to return until January, just because it would have smacked a little too much of a double-standard?


If it meant Harvey was on the field, I would have been more than happy to hear Ute fans crow about BYU being hipocrits and having a double standard. They are going to find something to complain about to take their minds off the fact that we will once again beat them. Now they will just have to hold on to Max's hatred of Utah somehow violating the honor code.
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Ddawg
Wickchad84087 wrote:
To clarify my position before this turns into a gospel discussion.



I'm a non-LDS fan of BYU. Obviously my views are going to be A LOT more liberal than most. I'm not a fan of the honor code. While I agree with the majority of the standards of the LDS church and agree that those standards improve your quality of life, the honor code goes well beyond what is necessary (and maybe what should be expected of 18-22 year olds). Should people be kicked out of school for gang rape, DUI, violent assaults, burglary, the majority of crimes, cheating, yes. Any school shouldn't put up with those things.



While I don't like the honor code, it does exist and Harvey signed it. So I absolutely agree that the only person to blame is Harvey. Do I think his crime fits the punishment, no. Do I think that every player that has pre-marital sex should be kicked out of school, no.



As a former high school athlete (i.e. Uncle Rico) I can tell you that I would have given anything to play D-1 football. It drives me nuts that individuals who are gifted enough to have the opportunity to play football potentially for a living would do anything to jeopardize that. Honor code aside, if you drink or do drugs you are not enhancing your ability to play. If you are told in order to play you must abide by a certain set of rules, you abide by those rules. If you carry a gun in a night club, have dog fights, or just enjoy thug life, you are probably not going to be playing long... An elite athlete shouldn't need an honor code to realize that. Does pre-marital sex that doesn't result in an STD affect your ability to play, probably not.



Just add Harvey to the list of running backs at BYU that I would have loved to have seen what they could have done if they were able to use all of their years of eligibility...


I agree with your thoughts & sentiments. I am LDS - I think the Honor Code is good & I support it. That said - it's application is many times - many times - heavy handed & excessive. I know, I was a student @ BYU & experienced some harsh & felt - still feel - unnecessarily harsh treatment.



None of us know the details of what is going on w/ Harvey. I for one believe firmly that repentance is an individual matter (between you & your Preiesthood leader). The fixed time frames set for matters like this should be guidelines & not set in concrete. All individuals should be evaluated & dealt w/ on an individual basis. Case by case. We are not privy to Harvey's situation & the details. I really hope he does not become bitter though it all. I would like to have seen Harvey play this Fall. I think the punishment here is pretty harsh. As stated before, I wish him all the success & good luck that life can bring.

8)
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snoscythe
BigCougsFan wrote:
Who knows... Maybe Ugna looked upon a woman and had some dirty thoughts rumaging through his head. According to Christ... If you think it, it's like doing it. Just thinking it is a sin.



Not to start a fight or arguement, but is that in violation of the H.C.???



Dang... I sin all the time at the gym. Man am I screwed! I would be the worst BYU student ever!


No. The Honor Code is a code of conduct.
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redneckjedi
One point I don't think has been mentioned in discussing the drop off from Harvey is the fact that Harvey came in and contributed his best year yardage-wise as a freshman - in a year where we were expecting Fui and Manase to pick up where Curtis Brown left off. Harvey came out of NOWHERE to everyone that wasn't following the offseason reports. Arizona had NO CLUE who #45 was until kickoff - but they definitely knew by the end of the day.



From the sound of things, Quezada is setting himself up nicely for a similar debut. And if it doesn't work out that way, I have plenty of confidence in Kariya. I re-watched the OU game earlier this week, and was reminded of how impressive he was to everyone, from me to the LBs he bowled over to the ESPN announcers. There may be some growing pains. Or there may not be - I don't remember any when Harvey took over.



Either way, I can't wait till fall. :evil:
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snoscythe
redneckjedi wrote:
Arizona had NO CLUE who #45 was until kickoff - but they definitely knew by the end of the day.


Yeah, all 67 yards of impressiveness...
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Wickchad
snoscythe wrote:
Arizona had NO CLUE who #45 was until kickoff - but they definitely knew by the end of the day.


Yeah, all 67 yards of impressiveness...


The one play from that game that sticks out in my mind is the run where the defenders think that Harvey is down, but he plants his hand on the ground and spins and takes off up the sideline for another 25 yards. That was the first indication of things to come.
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