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Good replacement for Omer?

by taekwondave · 6/22/2010

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taekwondave
Now, there you go. Show me some more pictures of the Lakers if you like.



However, SPEAKING of the Lakers, I happen to know that Phil Jackson is a big yoga guy. Had the Chicago Bulls doing yoga every one of their championship years. I am sure the Lakers follow a very similar regimen. For those who have done yoga though, it's really nothing like "stretching". It's a strange art. Most of the "stretches" that are done in yoga (and I STILL wouldn't recommend even yoga for a pre-game warmup aside from possibly some sun salutations to get your blood flowing. But a light jog will accomplish that just fine.) aren't really stretches at all but isometric holds. It's incredible the flexibility you gain through yoga but you would never even know you were "stretching". The concept in yoga is that of building heat in a muscle so that it will flex, stretch and bend. The first axiom in yoga is "even iron will bend if you heat it up enough". The very thought of stretching a cold muscle makes reason stare. I can't blame the studies on stretching that have found very little benefit to it as I think most stretching regimens never utilize heat the way they should to really stretch the muscles like they have the ability to do.



The majority of studies I have found have shown not only pregame stretching to be useless but it can actually harm your athletic performance that follows it.
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taekwondave
craigoscarson wrote:
"According to an stone et al in his article which reviewed researches on stretching (December 206, Strength and Conditioning Journal, vol 28, No 6, p66-74)), stretching may not be as wonderful as we were made to believe.

Stretching during pre-game warm up has not been shown to enhance performance. In fact, the reverse was observed to occur. Pre-game stretching has been shown to diminish maximum strength and explosive strength, resulting in decreased performance in sports such as sprinting, static jumps, gymnastics.

What about doing stretches after a game? Does it help? Is it useful at all? A review of the studies done by the author showed that post game stretching can bring about some benefits such as increased muscle force production which translates into faster running speed, improved vertical jumps. However the underlying mechanism remains unclear to the authors.

What about the claim that stretching can reduce the risk of suffering from injuries? Studies have shown that pre-game stretching has little or no effect at all on the rate of injury except in sports which require a greater ROM (range of motion) such as gymnastics (doing splits, handstands), golf (trunk rotation).

So to stretch or not to stretch? In summary, the authors do not encourage stretching pre-game unless you need to achieve a certain ROM for the sports to perform effectively without injury. However as stated before, it is important to remember that pre-game stretching can reduce maximum and explosive muscle force production. As such pre-game stretching should be kept as short as possible to minimise the detrimental effects. Emphasis on maintaining ROM of each sports can be done by doing stretches after game or training and on off days. Post game stretches are also encouraged for their benefical effects of increased muscle force production."



http://myfitnessfanatics.com/?p=10



"Overwhelming research concludes that pre-exercise stretching, especially for those who do not use short bursts of muscular activity, may result in a reduction in performance of up to five percent. At best, literature shows that weeks of regular stretching exercises, in conjunction with warm ups, may help athletes reduce injury by up to five percent. This small percentage may help athletes who use short bursts of energy such as sprinters improve their fifty-yard running speed by fractions of a second. Other sports that use continuous movements, such as cycling, should not expect the same benefits. Regardless of research, athletes, especially runners, continue to stretch, attempting to reduce injuries and increase their performance. More detailed studies and research are needed to find all possible neurological effects of stretching." Shrier, Ian. "When and Whom to Stretch?." Physician & Sportsmedicine 33.3(2005): 22-26.


Overwhelming research concludes that pre-exercise stretching, especially for those who do not use short bursts of muscular activity may result in a reduction in performance of up to five percent
.... you mean like football?



try again, these articles do not suggest what you're suggesting... and the 1st article is not in a scientfic journal nor does it cite verifed scientific study; however it does state that stretching is beneficial in sports that require high degree ROM and short bursts of muscular activity........... like football.



The 2nd article backs up what we're saying...
weeks of regular stretching exercises, in conjunction with warm ups, may help athletes reduce injury by up to five percent. This small percentage may help athletes who use short bursts of energy such as sprinters improve their fifty-yard running speed by fractions of a second


these articles certainly do not address your assertion that pregame stretching increases injury and should not be done...


These articles do not suggest what I'm suggesting? Did you READ them? The first article is not a scientific journal. Woops. But you're still pulling from it to make your point, despite the fact that you're twisting it's words. Read what it says. Just because it says that it ESPECIALLY harms those that don't play sports that require short bursts of energy does not infer that is BENEFICIAL to those that DO.



As for the 2nd article, it does NOT back up what you're saying, unless you're saying what I'm saying and you're disagreeing with me for no reason. Can you seriously be twisting an article that much? It clearly says that WEEKS OF REGULAR STRETCHING EXERCISES can help athletes reduce injury. I OBVIOUSLY believe in STRETCHING (remember, I'm the big yoga enthusiast?). There is a clear difference that it is making between a regular stretching regimen that is coupled with warming up and a pregame stretch. This does NOT say that pregame stretching has any benefits. Read the whole article. You're acting like an anti mormon that takes a statement of an authority out of context and insists that's what they meant. The article is obvious as to what point it's making.



As for your last point about these articles not addressing my assertion that pregame stretching increases injury and should not be done... That's twisting my words a bit. Increases...WHAT injury? The assertion I made was that stretching a COLD muscle will TEAR it. Why do you think they said, "In conjunction with warm-ups"? Only an IDIOT would stretch a cold muscle.
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taekwondave
I think the problem here is you're seeing what you want to see. You're confusing the concept of warming up your muscles in order to stretch effectively (you don't stretch cold muscles, you only tear them) and using stretching in your pre-game warm-ups. There is no evidence that stretching during pre-game warmups prevents injury or improves performance but there IS evidence that warming up improves stretching. That's what you've clearly confused in that article.



However I'm sure we don't disagree that stretching a cold muscle is hazardous to the muscle, do we?
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CougarClaw
snoscythe wrote:
If stretching is so bad, why do all professional athletes in all sports insist on stretching before practices/competition? Seems like the people with millions of dollars at stake would be changing things up if there was any merit to this.



And why is Harvey shaving time off his 40? For the same reason EVERY athlete shaves time off of their 40 leading up to the combine.



http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/Helicopters.jpg" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">


really good points but um...what's with the helicopters?



Just an FYI, US army stretches its soldiers before all workouts too. Just sayin.
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taekwondave
haha, those helicopters are sweet. Thanks.



As for the U.S. Army stretching people....what is your point?
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taekwondave
ANYWAYS, the whole POINT of this article is not even ABOUT stretching. It's about the overall program of Coach Omer as I see it. I think it has proven to be (and many other BYU trainers feel the same way) detrimental to our athletes. I think we'd have fewer injuries because we'd be less susceptible to injury if we used a different program. The slew of knee, groin, and hammy injuries on our team the last few years lends credit to that assumption. Now, PERHAPS we don't have any more injuries than the average program, but who wants to be average? And as far as speed goes, someone made an argument earlier that the speed problem would take care of itself with better recruiting. That's a big assumption. On my team we were all worse off than we had been before we worked with him for a year. After we left him our vertical jumps quickly increased, our shoulder injuries ceased, and our sprinting times improved. Some of my team members had stopped coming to workouts I THOUGHT for school reasons but as it turned out they had noticed their performance had declined significantly after we began our training with him and made up excuses not to come to workouts. You can take a finely tuned athlete in high school and put him into a crap program and watch all that speed you recruited disappear pretty quickly.



As for the NFL players that lend him credit, I have no rebuttal. They think he helped them they think he helped them. I can't argue with that. But I CAN argue with the fact that when BYU has been beat the last few years, I'm not even close to the only one who is saying, "Man, why are they so much FASTER than us?" And the video I posted was to show that contrary to what everyone here seems to believe, speed most certainly CAN be taught. If you're not fast you CAN be fast. If you can't jump high right now, with the right training you will jump high later. In this video he takes a guy from Weber and takes him from a 4.65 forty to a 4.43 or something like that. Why wasn't he running a 4.43 when he was PLAYING in college???? If he's capable of running that fast why WASN'T he running that fast? Training. I say we get a new trainer, unless our old dog Omer learns some new tricks and proves me wrong.
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Mars
taekwondave wrote:
It's about the overall program of Coach Omer as I see it. I think it has proven to be (and many other BYU trainers feel the same way) detrimental to our athletes.

Wait a second...



If you don't like Coach Omer, and have a personal beef against him where you blame him for one of your past injuries, how come you never said anything about it before now? Why keep quiet about this for so long, instead of voicing your opinion earlier??







;)
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Y12
It seems like the strength and conditioning coach is a guy you want to change every several years. Before Omer was Chuck Stiggins. He was very well respected professionally and had a "cutting edge" strength program. However, when Crowton replaced him, Omer was being praised for helping players increase their bench, squat, and overcoming plateauing.



I think the real issue is to change the training regime. The human body gets used to routines and needs a change to stimulate improvement. Omer needs to find a new way to do things or else BYU should find someone new who will do things differently.
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Guest
taekwondave wrote:
It's about the overall program of Coach Omer as I see it. I think it has proven to be (and many other BYU trainers feel the same way) detrimental to our athletes.


I really disagree with this idea that most trainers at BYU feel Coach Omer's program is detrimental to the athletes. Unless you can back this up with anything more than your one anecdotal experience. Because I have just as much anecdotal evidence that says trainers and players are pleased with what he's doing.



The facts as I see it are these:



1. Before Omer was brought in, the players were getting soft.

2. After Omer came in, the players reached higher levels of ferocity and toughness that we hadn't seen in years, if ever.

3. Opposing teams often talk about the Cougars physicality and toughness after playing us.

4. Our fast guys have been fast, and speed wasn't that great on the team until recent recruiting classes.
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snoscythe
Y12 wrote:
It seems like the strength and conditioning coach is a guy you want to change every several years. Before Omer was Chuck Stiggins. He was very well respected professionally and had a "cutting edge" strength program. However, when Crowton replaced him, Omer was being praised for helping players increase their bench, squat, and overcoming plateauing.



I think the real issue is to change the training regime. The human body gets used to routines and needs a change to stimulate improvement. Omer needs to find a new way to do things or else BYU should find someone new who will do things differently.


Stiggins getting replaced had nothing to do with his conditioning....it had to do with his attitude towards athletes of the fairer sex.
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mraven
Chuck Stiggins . . . man, it's been a while since I've heard that name. We all hated that guy. He was well respected and good at his job, but dang, he was jerk. I remember being in the weight room when he and Roger French almost came to blows. They were nose to nose, screaming at each other, dropping the f bomb every other word, then Stiggins pushed French. French came right back at him, fists raised, but right before they got within arms reach again one of the O-lineman ran between them and kept them apart. I don't think French could have taken Stiggins, but it would have been fun to watch.



Anyway, Stiggins had all kinds of interpersonal issues, but snoscythe is right about why he got replaced.
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taekwondave
hawkwing wrote:
It's about the overall program of Coach Omer as I see it. I think it has proven to be (and many other BYU trainers feel the same way) detrimental to our athletes.


I really disagree with this idea that most trainers at BYU feel Coach Omer's program is detrimental to the athletes. Unless you can back this up with anything more than your one anecdotal experience. Because I have just as much anecdotal evidence that says trainers and players are pleased with what he's doing.



The facts as I see it are these:



1. Before Omer was brought in, the players were getting soft.

2. After Omer came in, the players reached higher levels of ferocity and toughness that we hadn't seen in years, if ever.

3. Opposing teams often talk about the Cougars physicality and toughness after playing us.

4. Our fast guys have been fast, and speed wasn't that great on the team until recent recruiting classes.


What exactly would you like from me? Some written statements? Our new trainer told us how terrible he was and another trainer standing with our trainer was agreeing. You want a video or something? You don't have to believe me, I guess. But I can't give you any more evidence than what trainers have told me personally.
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runbyu1
I'm going to have to back Dave up here on several fronts. I was recently a BYU athlete (1st team all conference at my sport) and lots of people/trainers had issues with Coach Omer's methods. He IS effective but he needs to get up to speed on new research specifically with static vs ballistic stretching, etc.



As for stretching, I study this stuff for a living and ALL the recent research is questioning stretching. Static stretching pre-workout has been lampooned over and over in recent research and press for good reason. No stretching should EVER be done without a solid 10-15 minutes of warm up. Also, active stretching is showing to be far superior to static stretching.



It's funny, I really liked Coach Stiggins as a teacher and he wasn't sexually harassing, people just can't take a freaking joke. The guy was pretty genuine in my opinion---very sarcastic and joking though and a lot of people don't get that stuff unfortunately---people need to learn to take a joke.



-G
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Mars
runbyu1 wrote:
I'm going to have to back Dave up here on several fronts. I was recently a BYU athlete (1st team all conference at my sport) and lots of people/trainers had issues with Coach Omer's methods.
I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to check your ID first. Hmm... this says you're "6". Glad I carded you- your number of posts to date doesn't disqualify you or your posts from being helpful, but it does make it easier to question believability.



Feel free to post more often! 8)
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Lawboy
Interesting topic because I just had a conversation with a guy about this earlier this week while on a work trip. He is a strength coach at a local high school, and knows all the strength coaches at BYU. He is an elite athlete, trains for strength himself for competitions, so he knows his stuff. He has a high school kid that BYU is recruiting right now that he trains, and says Utah is out-recruiting BYU on him by a mile--and it makes him mad, but that is another story.



Anyway, he said Omer is great for strength training. Really gets guys stronger. Knows haw to help them that way. But also said that his stretching approach is not best because he has guys stretch first before a good warm up. Said you should NEVER stretch cold muscles, and that for peak performance, it is best to only do light ballistic stretching prior to the competition, not much if any static stretching, with the heavy stretching after. If you do too much heavy static stretching of cold muscles, it causes micro tears that can led to injury.



SO basically, he just thought Omer needed to revise his warm up technique with the athletes to allow their bodies to prepare for the stretch, then do it lightly with more motion, less static, to not cause injury while performing. Otherwise, thought he really got a lot out of the athletes.
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CannonCougar85
Lawboy wrote:
Anyway, he said Omer is great for strength training. Really gets guys stronger. Knows haw to help them that way. But also said that his stretching approach is not best because he has guys stretch first before a good warm up. Said you should NEVER stretch cold muscles, and that for peak performance, it is best to only do light ballistic stretching prior to the competition, not much if any static stretching, with the heavy stretching after. If you do too much heavy static stretching of cold muscles, it causes micro tears that can led to injury.


Seems pretty consistent with what I have heard too. Here is my earlier post.


I have spoke to many players who feel that Omer is a great trainer and an especially good strength coach. All of them said that they have gotten stronger with Omer across the board.



That being said a few of them did say that Omer is not a speed coach and that they don't think there are many players that get faster under Omer.


By the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses...
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taekwondave
And......now I don't look so much like a crazy person :D
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runbyu1
Mars wrote:
I'm going to have to back Dave up here on several fronts. I was recently a BYU athlete (1st team all conference at my sport) and lots of people/trainers had issues with Coach Omer's methods.
I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to check your ID first. Hmm... this says you're "6". Glad I carded you- your number of posts to date doesn't disqualify you or your posts from being helpful, but it does make it easier to question believability.



Feel free to post more often! 8)


Go easy, Mars. If you will look back, you will see I have been on CougarBlue for MANY years and have hundreds of posts to my name. I switched over here a while back, which is why you don't see as many post. If you will check the quality of my posts and also my reputation on Cougarblue, you will see that I am both believable and qualified. Thanks, runbyu1
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HoosierCougar
Y12 wrote:
It seems like the strength and conditioning coach is a guy you want to change every several years...



I think the real issue is to change the training regime. The human body gets used to routines and needs a change to stimulate improvement. Omer needs to find a new way to do things or else BYU should find someone new who will do things differently.


For this to work at the college level, you'd have to change the trainer every 2 years. If the regime must change for success, then it must change during the athlete's tenure with enough time to have an impact. Changing every 2 years would do that, even accommodating missionary service.



I am not a trainer, barely even an athlete anymore, so I ask in all sincerity, how often do other top college programs and professional teams change trainers?
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Guest
HoosierCougar wrote:
It seems like the strength and conditioning coach is a guy you want to change every several years...



I think the real issue is to change the training regime. The human body gets used to routines and needs a change to stimulate improvement. Omer needs to find a new way to do things or else BYU should find someone new who will do things differently.


For this to work at the college level, you'd have to change the trainer every 2 years. If the regime must change for success, then it must change during the athlete's tenure with enough time to have an impact. Changing every 2 years would do that, even accommodating missionary service.



I am not a trainer, barely even an athlete anymore, so I ask in all sincerity, how often do other top college programs and professional teams change trainers?


It would only make sense if all the top programs were rotating the best trainers between themselves. I don't see it ever happening.
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