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To add to the pile

by mcgregor · 9/12/2010

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byufan4ever
Some people need a little bigger perspective. After the first game, everything including the two QB system was working fine. Now, after one loss, the two QB system is a failure. ONE game people. We have a very young and inexperienced team. You can't blame it all on Nelson. We failed horribly against one team, but we really need to see how things are after the first four games. That doesn't mean that we don't make adjustments, but let's trust Bronco, who's brought us a winning tradition.



I knew that after his first mistake, Int, loss, etc. EVERYONE would be hating Nelson and on the Heaps bandwagon. Actually, many people already were. But you guys were WAITING for Nelson to make a mistake. Nelson, the QB who can't please the fans. Heaps, the QB who can do no wrong.



Remember, that most college football "analysts/experts" expected us to win 8 games this year. I would hope that we would beat the experts' estimate and win at least 9 games, but remember that the general consesus is that we have much less experience/talent this year then compared to years past. Yah, play all of our 4/5 star freshman and everything will just be dandy from here on out... :skeptic:
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stuckinbig10country
With how poorly the team was prepared yesterday, I don't think it really mattered who took snaps at qb.



Having said that, after Nelson failed the while third quarter, they should have put Heaps in. That is the fact of the matter.



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pjmuli
byufan4ever wrote:
Some people need a little bigger perspective. After the first game, everything including the two QB system was working fine. Now, after one loss, the two QB system is a failure. ONE game people. We have a very young and inexperienced team. You can't blame it all on Nelson. We failed horribly against one team, but we really need to see how things are after the first four games. That doesn't mean that we don't make adjustments, but let's trust Bronco, who's brought us a winning tradition.



I knew that after his first mistake, Int, loss, etc. EVERYONE would be hating Nelson and on the Heaps bandwagon. Actually, many people already were. But you guys were WAITING for Nelson to make a mistake. Nelson, the QB who can't please the fans. Heaps, the QB who can do no wrong.



Remember, that most college football "analysts/experts" expected us to win 8 games this year. I would hope that we would beat the experts' estimate and win at least 9 games, but remember that the general consesus is that we have much less experience/talent this year then compared to years past. Yah, play all of our 4/5 star freshman and everything will just be dandy from here on out... :skeptic:


This assessment is not really fair. Personally, I was not waiting...it is just painfully obvious. Heaps wowed no one on Saturday, mind you...but the futility of the Nelson experiment is plain to see unless he can develop an ability to consistently accurate. With Nelson, BYU was exposed as being completely and totally predictable. I fail to see how you could argue that point.



And again...we are not bashing on Heaps today because he didn't sniff the field in the second half. So this truly is a conversation about Nelson and what we saw yesterday...and it was ugly, painful, and embarrassing - and it is a reflection of coaching.



Furthermore, I don't know any BYU fan who honestly thought the two quarterbacks would rotate every series the entire season.



From my view, BYU has not really given Heaps a chance to right this ship...because, honestly....when Heaps is in the game...they should probably have a 50/50 balance of run/pass. Seems like it is always a 80pass/20run balance.



My 2 cents...but I don't think these remarks are an overreaction. That loss was sickening. Were the fans wrong when they could not understand why BYU did not give the ball to Unga against the Utes in 2008? He was averaging 7 yards per carry, the Utes were obviously going to give it to BYU, and Hall threw five interceptions.



To me, that was painfully obvious too.
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pjmuli
Short_Change wrote:
1. We should have NEVER moved forward with the 2 QB system. Bronco was simply wrong, and the results of that mistake will continue to be bear out. Mostly, the receivers look horrible PRIMARILY because they do not get enough reps with Jake Heaps.



2. Steven Thomas is simply not a D1 athlete.



3. Luke Ashworth should not be on the field.



4. Riley Nelson needs to hold a clipboard, not a football.



5. Jamison Frazier needs to yield the position to KVN.


I completely agree with everything except number 3. All the receivers have been bad so why do you highlight Ashworth? I partially agree with number 4. Heaps should definitely be the starter but I do think we should utilize Nelson and certain plays here and there. Heck you may even think about moving Riley to RB. He would probably be better there. And Thomas is just plain terrible.


To me, I do not read #3 as saying "Luke Ashworth is incapable of playing well."



I read it as..."Luke Ashworth is not currently making plays and our wide receiving corps is now good enough that people who do not make plays should be sat so others with similar or more ability are given the opportunity to make the plays."



But McGregor can elaborate for himself if he likes.
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mcgregor
A Few follow-up thoughts for clarity:



1) I have ALWAYS hated the 2 QB system. I've never supported it. I guess I don't hop on the board as often as I once did, but I have been quite vocal about the 2 QB plan. While I favored Heaps (I simply don't think Nelson is a capable QB), I would have been fine with Nelson so long as we picked one guy. It's imperative that the WR's get in sync with the QB, and it's hard enough to do that during fall camp, much less while you're splitting time. I am no football expert, and Bronco will forget more than I will ever know, but on this one point, I simply think he is in error.



2) I've never been high on Luke Ashworth, including while he was in HS. I think he's a good backup QB. But he's far better than he showed yesterday, and for that he should be knocked down the depth chart. Ashworth is a pure possession receiver. I think Chambers' problems are due in part to the lack of QB consistency, and Ashworth's would be there regardless. That's why I've singled him out.
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Cougarbib
I gotta agree with 4ever and I gotta call BS on this stuff. We r seeing what most realizes and experts expected to see due to inexperience on both sides of the ball. Btw, I would like to see Uale get more reps because his father is my Stake President.



There is a lot of sorting out with this team that will need to be done. Perhaps we should reflect on how well BYU did in the past with slow, unathletic receivers who ran disciplined and precise routes, caught the ball, and hung onto it. Turning things over to athletic players lacking experience and discipline could spell disaster.



Heaps was quoted as saying he could make that throw 9 out of 10 times. Maybe coaches wanted him to understand why he shouldn't have made that throw. Bronco mentioned Hesps being more confused by what AFA was doing.



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Brayden Green
Cougarbib2 wrote:



Heaps was quoted as saying he could make that throw 9 out of 10 times. Maybe coaches wanted him to understand why he shouldn't have made that throw. Bronco mentioned Hesps being more confused by what AFA was doing.



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Links?



When asked after the game how his confidence was, he said, "Higher than ever." per Jay Drew and Greg Wrubell, Dick Harmon, etc.



It doesn't sound to me like his confidence was shaken by throwing a pick. Maybe it was shaken to see the coaching staff clearly go against him, for no apparent reason. He should have been playing the 4th... If you are burning his redshirt year, then play him every chance we get, especially in a clear loss.



They picked their horse, and rode it to death.
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Cougarbib
BYU had a game plan and it was not to attack a very good and experienced AFA secondary. It was to run on an inexperienced front 7 and throw underneath to pick on linebackers. If key players could catch and hang onto the ball and JJ and Chambers could focus on ball control instead of getting out of control near the end zone, and if the OL quit jumping, and if Reynolds was not bent over in pain with the flu, and if anyone besides Nelson and JJ could run, and if a tight end could catch a pass, and we could punt, and the D could stop AFA once in s while, we would have won that game.



But let's hang it all on Nelson. BTW, someone should summarize QB stats like was done for camp. They both went against the UW 1s for equal reps and AFA 1s equal reps for the first ate or two. Maybe u will see why they went with Nelson. How many TDs has Neldon led BYU to. How many for Heaps. AFA player was quoted as saying Max Hall would have audible out of plays that would not work but Heaps ran them. Inexperience. We will need to be patient even though this loss made me physically I'll.





Bib



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BroncoBot
Cougarbib2 wrote:
BYU had a game plan and it was not to attack a very good and experienced AFA secondary. It was to run on an inexperienced front 7 and throw underneath to pick on linebackers. If key players could catch and hang onto the ball and JJ and Chambers could focus on ball control instead of getting out of control near the end zone, and if the OL quit jumping, and if Reynolds was not bent over in pain with the flu, and if anyone besides Nelson and JJ could run, and if a tight end could catch a pass, and we could punt, and the D could stop AFA once in s while, we would have won that game.



But let's hang it all on Nelson. BTW, someone should summarize QB stats like was done for camp. They both went against the UW 1s for equal reps and AFA 1s equal reps for the first ate or two. Maybe u will see why they went with Nelson. How many TDs has Neldon led BYU to. How many for Heaps. AFA player was quoted as saying Max Hall would have audible out of plays that would not work but Heaps ran them. Inexperience. We will need to be patient even though this loss made me physically I'll.





Bib



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What??? You actually think this loss was more than just Nelson's and the coaches' fault?



I'm right there with you.
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Short_Change
mcgregor wrote:
A Few follow-up thoughts for clarity:



1) I have ALWAYS hated the 2 QB system. I've never supported it. I guess I don't hop on the board as often as I once did, but I have been quite vocal about the 2 QB plan. While I favored Heaps (I simply don't think Nelson is a capable QB), I would have been fine with Nelson so long as we picked one guy. It's imperative that the WR's get in sync with the QB, and it's hard enough to do that during fall camp, much less while you're splitting time. I am no football expert, and Bronco will forget more than I will ever know, but on this one point, I simply think he is in error.



2) I've never been high on Luke Ashworth, including while he was in HS. I think he's a good backup QB. But he's far better than he showed yesterday, and for that he should be knocked down the depth chart. Ashworth is a pure possession receiver. I think Chambers' problems are due in part to the lack of QB consistency, and Ashworth's would be there regardless. That's why I've singled him out.


From everything that I've seen from Ashworth before this year, he's had very good hands. The one play on the deep ball it seemed as if he'd lost it in the sun or something. This year obviously he's had issues as has pretty much every other receiver so to single him out doesn't make sense. It seems as if you're trying to say that your original assessment of him out of HS is proving to be true. I don't see how you can say that since all the WR's haven't been playing to their potential. I can only hand that on the 2 QB system.
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Brayden Green
Short_Change wrote:
A Few follow-up thoughts for clarity:



1) I have ALWAYS hated the 2 QB system. I've never supported it. I guess I don't hop on the board as often as I once did, but I have been quite vocal about the 2 QB plan. While I favored Heaps (I simply don't think Nelson is a capable QB), I would have been fine with Nelson so long as we picked one guy. It's imperative that the WR's get in sync with the QB, and it's hard enough to do that during fall camp, much less while you're splitting time. I am no football expert, and Bronco will forget more than I will ever know, but on this one point, I simply think he is in error.



2) I've never been high on Luke Ashworth, including while he was in HS. I think he's a good backup QB. But he's far better than he showed yesterday, and for that he should be knocked down the depth chart. Ashworth is a pure possession receiver. I think Chambers' problems are due in part to the lack of QB consistency, and Ashworth's would be there regardless. That's why I've singled him out.


From everything that I've seen from Ashworth before this year, he's had very good hands. The one play on the deep ball it seemed as if he'd lost it in the sun or something. This year obviously he's had issues as has pretty much every other receiver so to single him out doesn't make sense. It seems as if you're trying to say that your original assessment of him out of HS is proving to be true. I don't see how you can say that since all the WR's haven't been playing to their potential. I can only hand that on the 2 QB system.


It has already been cleared up in another thread that he wasn't looking into the sun. He just gave up on a route, meaning, he didn't run it all the way through. If he had, the ball was there, waiting for him to (possibly) catch it.
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pjmuli
Cougarbib2 wrote:
BYU had a game plan and it was not to attack a very good and experienced AFA secondary. It was to run on an inexperienced front 7 and throw underneath to pick on linebackers. If key players could catch and hang onto the ball and JJ and Chambers could focus on ball control instead of getting out of control near the end zone, and if the OL quit jumping, and if Reynolds was not bent over in pain with the flu, and if anyone besides Nelson and JJ could run, and if a tight end could catch a pass, and we could punt, and the D could stop AFA once in s while, we would have won that game.



But let's hang it all on Nelson. BTW, someone should summarize QB stats like was done for camp. They both went against the UW 1s for equal reps and AFA 1s equal reps for the first ate or two. Maybe u will see why they went with Nelson. How many TDs has Neldon led BYU to. How many for Heaps. AFA player was quoted as saying Max Hall would have audible out of plays that would not work but Heaps ran them. Inexperience. We will need to be patient even though this loss made me physically I'll.





Bib



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I suppose I don't see many comments on this thread (including mine) as hanging all of the loss on Nelson. The two comments in bold illustrate the two problems:



#1 - I seriously doubt the BYU gameplan was to achieve less than 100 yards passing. I seriously doubt the gameplan involved Nelson running the ball 20 times. Finally, if that was the gameplan....to avoid the secondary and run the ball at the inexperienced front seven...why did DiLuigi amass a grand total of seven carries?



#2 - I think it is pretty clear to most observers that Nelson imploded in the pass game. You can say to yourself, "well, if the WR would make a play" and yaddi-yaddah...but the reality is that a good chunk of Nelson's throws sail, are at receivers feet, leading them out bounds, etc. Basically, the defense begged Nelson to throw the football...and they were paid HANDSOMELY for doing so to the tune of 0 points and almost no passing yards in the second half.



#3 - Does anyone really feel better about Nelson after comparing touchdown drives? I am sorry, but anyone who watched the second half would find little comfort in that comparison because once the defense adjusted to Nelson, he simply could not make the defense pay for honing in on the run. The question has fundamentally changed. Nelson scored three touchdowns when the defense was adjusting to his running and one on a blown defensive assignment. After watching Air Force, does anyone really want to suggest that if BYU goes to FSU and they choose to load up the box and see what Nelson can do through the air, that we will find the endzone consistently enough to win the game? Let alone the field position battle?



Heaps has lead a couple of three and out drives, two FG drives, one pick, and one drive end on a DiLuigi fumble. If we use the WR dropping passes excuse that we are making for Nelson, we could conceivably argue that Heaps has been robbed of four touchdown drives (Wilson in the endzone, Jacobsen at the 20, Ashworth giving up on the route, and DiLuigi fumble).



But to sum it up...from what we have seen on real game film, I believe the offense will have a better chance working through some of the Heaps growing pains by getting the receivers aligned with his tendencies, freeing up the run game by forcing the defense to defend the pass, and by simply watching the kid develop.



I think if we are fair in our evaluation, we have to acknowledge that Nelson has been exposed and in order for the offense to work under his direction, it would have be retooled and we should abandon some degree of our passing identity.



J
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Cougarbib
Heaps had the same opportunities as Nelson through 5 or 6 quarters of D1 football and was not able to overcome the struggles of tight ends and receivers who can't catch and hold onto the ball, only having one RB who is a threat for big plays but also can't hang onto the ball. UW and AFA both kept Heaps 100% out of the endzone. They could not keep Nelson out of the endzone even given the lack of execution by teammates.



UW was not able to exploit our D, but AFA did. UW self destructed on several drives or may have had more success.



It is the BYU receivers, tight ends, linebackers, ends, safety, and RB inexperience that have been exposed along with both QBs lacking experience.



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Italics
BlueIsBetter wrote:
mcgregor wrote:
A Few follow-up thoughts for clarity:



1) I have ALWAYS hated the 2 QB system. I've never supported it. I guess I don't hop on the board as often as I once did, but I have been quite vocal about the 2 QB plan. While I favored Heaps (I simply don't think Nelson is a capable QB), I would have been fine with Nelson so long as we picked one guy. It's imperative that the WR's get in sync with the QB, and it's hard enough to do that during fall camp, much less while you're splitting time. I am no football expert, and Bronco will forget more than I will ever know, but on this one point, I simply think he is in error.



2) I've never been high on Luke Ashworth, including while he was in HS. I think he's a good backup QB. But he's far better than he showed yesterday, and for that he should be knocked down the depth chart. Ashworth is a pure possession receiver. I think Chambers' problems are due in part to the lack of QB consistency, and Ashworth's would be there regardless. That's why I've singled him out.


From everything that I've seen from Ashworth before this year, he's had very good hands. The one play on the deep ball it seemed as if he'd lost it in the sun or something. This year obviously he's had issues as has pretty much every other receiver so to single him out doesn't make sense. It seems as if you're trying to say that your original assessment of him out of HS is proving to be true. I don't see how you can say that since all the WR's haven't been playing to their potential. I can only hand that on the 2 QB system.


It has already been cleared up in another thread that he wasn't looking into the sun. He just gave up on a route, meaning, he didn't run it all the way through. If he had, the ball was there, waiting for him to (possibly) catch it.


I'm very glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. The announcers said "and the ball is thrown too ahead of him," but it looked COMPLETELY to me like Ashworth gave up and stopped running long before the ball even hit the ground.

Maybe it was just tough to tell from the angle we saw it from, but it really did look like he could've caught it had he kept running.
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Italics
Cougarbib2 wrote:
BYU had a game plan and it was not to attack a very good and experienced AFA secondary. It was to run on an inexperienced front 7 and throw underneath to pick on linebackers. If key players could catch and hang onto the ball and JJ and Chambers could focus on ball control instead of getting out of control near the end zone, and if the OL quit jumping, and if Reynolds was not bent over in pain with the flu, and if anyone besides Nelson and JJ could run, and if a tight end could catch a pass, and we could punt, and the D could stop AFA once in s while, we would have won that game.



But let's hang it all on Nelson. BTW, someone should summarize QB stats like was done for camp. They both went against the UW 1s for equal reps and AFA 1s equal reps for the first ate or two. Maybe u will see why they went with Nelson. How many TDs has Neldon led BYU to. How many for Heaps. AFA player was quoted as saying Max Hall would have audible out of plays that would not work but Heaps ran them. Inexperience. We will need to be patient even though this loss made me physically I'll.





Bib



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Give me a break. A "very good" Air Force secondary?



Remember that "#1" ranked passing Air Force defense we played last year? You know... the one Max Hall tore apart? Yeah, that one. A strong passing game has destroyed them for us 6 years in a row, and you're telling me our plan was all of a sudden to run on them? I kind of doubt that. And if it was our game plan, it just goes to show even more how awful the preparation for this game was.



Game plan or not... ever heard of adjustments? It didn't take much to see that the offense we were running on them wasn't effective. This is why it would've made sense to put our passing QB in - at least at the end of the game when we weren't good for anything other than a 3-and-out.
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SpiffCoug
Italics wrote:

Give me a break. A "very good" Air Force secondary?



Remember that "#1" ranked passing Air Force defense we played last year? You know... the one Max Hall tore apart? Yeah, that one. A strong passing game has destroyed them for us 6 years in a row, and you're telling me our plan was all of a sudden to run on them? I kind of doubt that. And if it was our game plan, it just goes to show even more how awful the preparation for this game was.



Game plan or not... ever heard of adjustments? It didn't take much to see that the offense we were running on them wasn't effective. This is why it would've made sense to put our passing QB in - at least at the end of the game when we weren't good for anything other than a 3-and-out.

Did you see what that "#1 ranked passing defense did to Case Keenum last year?
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imuakahuku
Cougarbib2 wrote:
Heaps had the same opportunities as Nelson through 5 or 6 quarters of D1 football and was not able to overcome the struggles of tight ends and receivers who can't catch and hold onto the ball, only having one RB who is a threat for big plays but also can't hang onto the ball. UW and AFA both kept Heaps 100% out of the endzone. They could not keep Nelson out of the endzone even given the lack of execution by teammates.



UW was not able to exploit our D, but AFA did. UW self destructed on several drives or may have had more success.



It is the BYU receivers, tight ends, linebackers, ends, safety, and RB inexperience that have been exposed along with both QBs lacking experience.



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The fact as things stand now is that teams now see that Nelson is not a threat through the air. He does not have great field vision, has a below average arm, and tucks the ball after only a couple of checks. Basically to defend him all you have to do is stop the run. Because he doesn't give the WR's time to get open, he looks, looks again, and then either heaves the ball hoping to get it there or tucks and runs. A DB can usually stay with a WR those first couple of seconds.

As for Ash, I seem to recall him being fairly reliable in catching the shorter routes and being a very good possession type WR. Whenever you needed 7-12 yrds he seemed he could deliver. I also remember him catching most of the balls thown to him. In the WA game it looked to me that the WR's just couldn't handle the balls coming from Heaps. I believe that Heaps needs more reps with the WR's. The ground game is much better because he stretches the field. Even though the long pass to Ash was an incompletion it put it into the back of the minds of the defense.



Again concerning Jakes pick. It was more the fault of the WR's than his fault. Again I ask how does a CB covering the flat make the INT on a pass downfield? And for those that don't know its called poor route running. I remember my days and coaches always preached seperation or you get one defender easily guarding two WR's.



I didn't really care who the starter was before the season, I leaned more towards Riley in hopes of a Doman type season, but now I can see that is not what we will get. What bothers me most was that he would drop back and tuck the ball while still in the pocket. Just inexcusable.
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Mars
mcgregor wrote:
1. We should have NEVER moved forward with the 2 QB system. Bronco was simply wrong, and the results of that mistake will continue to be bear out. Mostly, the receivers look horrible PRIMARILY because they do not get enough reps with Jake Heaps.



2. Steven Thomas is simply not a D1 athlete.



3. Luke Ashworth should not be on the field.



4. Riley Nelson needs to hold a clipboard, not a football.



5. Jamison Frazier needs to yield the position to KVN.

Agreed. And to add on...



*Steven Thomas was terrible stopping the option against Air Force. Will he be that terrible against a "normal" team? I sure hope not, but I really like Eason and Galea'i, two guys who should be playing more.



*Ashworth and Chambers were my two "overrated" WRs after fall camp, with Apo and Hoffman my two "underrated" WRs- I posted that here. This season has only reinforced those positions for me.



*Frazier is a great pass rusher. Air Force is not a team to pass rush.



*Van Noy was BYU's best LB in Fall camp. The best one! He didn't play in the 1st half against Washington, but played a ton in the 2nd half. UW 17 1st half points, 0 2nd half points. And yet he didn't see the field at all against Air Force. This was the 3rd worst boneheaded coaching mistake in the game, after playing JJ too little and playing Nelson too much.
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Mars
pjmuli wrote:
craigoscarson wrote:
This comes down to coaching. We got demolished in the coaching category and the BYU coaches made awful decisions. They need to take this one on the chin and learn from their mistakes. Mistakes in personnel, gameplan, and preparation
Moreover, when they made adjustments, they made at least one of them in the wrong direction.
the BYU coaching staff makes no counter adjustments and sails to three consecutive quarters of scoreless football along with a second half of near complete three-and-out possessions...



#1 - I bet the offense has many more penalties against them when Riley plays.

#2 - I suspect that the RB average yards per rush is much higher when Heaps is playing.



Final observations:

#1 - I fail to understand the rotation at RB. I don't see any competitive advantage in using Kariya. Furthermore, I don't understand why DiLuigi is leading the team in big plays but sharing the workload evenly with the other two.

#2 - I am concerned about the coaching staff's response to BOTH the Heaps interception and the DiLuigi fumble.

#3 - The whole thing with Riley Nelson and the two quarterbacks feels so... dare I say it... Crowton-esque. In fact, the infatuation with Nelson feels Lance Pendleton to me. We have suddenly gone all cutesie... and truly, we are better with precision execution sustained over time... when taking into account all of the film this year, hasn't Heaps drives looked more precise, deliberate, and intentional?



Someone on the BYU offensive Coaching Staff needs to be held accountable. This stuff is obvious to everyone who watches.

I said this last week. Give JJ more touches. Take away Kariya's touches. Give Quezada some touches. Simple.



JJ had about 11 yards per run on Saturday. He got 7 touches.

Nelson had about 4 yards per run on Saturday. He got 20 touches, or about 3 times more than JJ.

Kariya had about 2 yards per run on Saturday. He got 7 touches, SAME AS DILUIGI!

Quezada had zero touches for the 2nd game in a row, after outplaying Kariya in Fall camp. Ridiculous.
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Mars
pjmuli wrote:
Personally, I was not waiting... it is just painfully obvious. Heaps wowed no one on Saturday, mind you... but the futility of the Nelson experiment is plain to see unless he can develop an ability to consistently accurate. With Nelson, BYU was exposed as being completely and totally predictable. I fail to see how you could argue that point. And again... we are not bashing on Heaps today because he didn't sniff the field in the second half. So this truly is a conversation about Nelson and what we saw yesterday... and it was ugly, painful, and embarrassing - and it is a reflection of coaching...



From my view, BYU has not really given Heaps a chance to right this ship... because, honestly.... when Heaps is in the game... they should probably have a 50/50 balance of run/pass. Seems like it is always a 80pass/20run balance.



My 2 cents... but I don't think these remarks are an overreaction. That loss was sickening. Were the fans wrong when they could not understand why BYU did not give the ball to Unga against the Utes in 2008? He was averaging 7 yards per carry, the Utes were obviously going to give it to BYU, and Hall threw five interceptions. To me, that was painfully obvious too.

AMEN! Exactly. Heaps has been thrown out there without JJ DiLuigi to support him, with horrible play-calling from Anae. Stupid. Heaps + JJ is a lethal combination, given time. Nelson + anyone is a failed experiment. Time to move on.
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