TCU Week--28 pt dog?? Ouch. & Game Notes

frdbtr wrote:

Why is Jake completely absolved of blame on when it comes to how poorly our passing game is when the same group of recievers didn't seem to have trouble catching Max Hall's passes last year?

That is terrible logic. You assume that the only variable in this instance is the QB. This statement would make anyone who reads it absolutely certain that you have not actually watched a game yet this year. Please tell me your comments are not based on box scores...I personally kept track of drops during the USU game and I counted 10 solid "drops" of which 2 were TD's. Those stats would be roughly the same in each previous game as well. Wow.

I am going to Vegas this weekend and I will be putting 50 $ on BYU to cover

Sorry, but giving a receiver a pass for dropping a "fast ball" is a joke. It is their job to catch it. Go watch an NFL game and see how hard he QB rips it over the middle every time. Watch Collie catch some passes from Manning. He throws it hard, just as Jake does, and it is considered a strength for Manning, not a weakness. The QBs job is to deliver the ball in a catchable spot. the receivers job to is to catch it. Period. Even when thrown hard. Just means our receiver corp needs more work at catching balls and are not that skilled, because balls get caught all over the country by receivers with similar passes to those dropped by the BYU crew. OUr TE group has been poor this year, our receivers have not made plays. All year long, regardless of which QB was throwing it(Riley had many drops too, and he hardly throws with velocity). Our receivers have been at a D+ level most of this year with play making. Seriously, how many balls have they as a group caught 15+ yards down the field this year? Fewer than they have dropped, that is certain.

mizzoucoug wrote:
That is terrible logic. You assume that the only variable in this instance is the QB. This statement would make anyone who reads it absolutely certain that you have not actually watched a game yet this year. Please tell me your comments are not based on box scores...I personally kept track of drops during the USU game and I counted 10 solid "drops" of which 2 were TD's. Those stats would be roughly the same in each previous game as well. Wow.

I would like you to read something and tell me where I blame the entire problem on Jake.

frdbtr wrote:
I have been watching the same games as the rest of you and I have seen balls dropped where recievers got both hands on the ball. (if a reciever gets both hands on the ball, it should be caught) but everyone is blaming this completely on the reciever. Last year these same guys were catching the same balls that they are dropping this year and there has been only 1 change that I can see that is different from last year and that is the person throwing the ball. I am not trying to put all blame on Jake Heaps, there is a lot going wrong here in the throwing game but my point is, there is more then bad catchers in the break down. Jake throws the ball too early sometimes, and other times throws too late (the interception in the end zone last game). He also puts too much zip on the ball sometimes and this affects the recievers especially when he throws too early. Throw before he is supposed too, throw a fast ball and the result is the ball bouncing off the recievers helmet or chest and and incompletion. These are problems that are going to work themselves out but in the mean time, we need to rely on the Oline (not freshman) to get us yards. SDSU KNEW we were running last game and they couldn't stop it...why? Because our Oline blocked well and that opened holes. If we are to keep the TCU game close, it is going to have to be more of the same.

frdbtr wrote:

Why is Jake completely absolved of blame on when it comes to how poorly our passing game is when the same group of recievers didn't seem to have trouble catching Max Hall's passes last year?

Hmmm...the same group of receivers last year weren't our primary targets. Consequently, opponents' best defensive players weren't paired with them. Pitta/George/Unga usually had multiple defenders within close proximity. Our opponents game planned to stop those specific players. With those guys gone, who are defenses going to focus on?



Second, yes the same receivers caught wide open passes last year from Hall, but they aren't catching the same passes from Heaps. Shouldn't matter who delivers the pass, though. If you're open and it's on the money, you should catch it and our receivers aren't this year aren't.

Lawboy wrote:
Sorry, but giving a receiver a pass for dropping a "fast ball" is a joke. It is their job to catch it. Go watch an NFL game and see how hard he QB rips it over the middle every time. Watch Collie catch some passes from Manning. He throws it hard, just as Jake does, and it is considered a strength for Manning, not a weakness. The QBs job is to deliver the ball in a catchable spot. the receivers job to is to catch it. Period. Even when thrown hard. Just means our receiver corp needs more work at catching balls and are not that skilled, because balls get caught all over the country by receivers with similar passes to those dropped by the BYU crew. OUr TE group has been poor this year, our receivers have not made plays. All year long, regardless of which QB was throwing it(Riley had many drops too, and he hardly throws with velocity). Our receivers have been at a D+ level most of this year with play making. Seriously, how many balls have they as a group caught 15+ yards down the field this year? Fewer than they have dropped, that is certain.

I am not giving a reciever a pass at all. I am just pointing out that the problems with catching aren't completely the recievers fault in all cases which is the impression I get from some of the posters here. A fastball is not a bad thing when it is delivered on time, but a fastball delivered early is in the recievers lap before he is expecting it and will get dropped. A ball thrown late, results in interceptions. Jake heaps has loads of talent and I am sure that he is going to be very good as he learns the offense better but he is still not performing at a level that has me trusting him to win games with his arm. In fact, I don't see that happening until next year.



I wonder if we had not landed Jake heaps (he went to Washington or somewhere else) if we would be giving the same pass to our QB if it were Lark or Munns who was making the same mistakes. I remember how quick everyone turned on Matt Berry or John Beck when they struggled. Heaps seems to not get the same scrutiny that I have seen of other QB's that have come and struggled when they were forced into starting too soon.

The big uglies up front will have to play well Saturday for us. If those guys go in with the right attitude, get really physical and push off the ball hard and fast, they definitely give us a better chance. We have to run it and control clock to win it this year. I have no problem with that either. Play to strength. I understand we love the passing game at BYU, but this year Big 10 ball is what helps us win more. And I am ok with it because winning is the goal, especially with a young team. I also expect TCU to come after Jake in obvious passing downs. The one good thing about Jake, though, is that he does not panic. I hope we come out physical and set a tone, and not let them smack us in the mouth early.

frdbtr wrote:

Sorry, but giving a receiver a pass for dropping a "fast ball" is a joke. It is their job to catch it. Go watch an NFL game and see how hard he QB rips it over the middle every time. Watch Collie catch some passes from Manning. He throws it hard, just as Jake does, and it is considered a strength for Manning, not a weakness. The QBs job is to deliver the ball in a catchable spot. the receivers job to is to catch it. Period. Even when thrown hard. Just means our receiver corp needs more work at catching balls and are not that skilled, because balls get caught all over the country by receivers with similar passes to those dropped by the BYU crew. OUr TE group has been poor this year, our receivers have not made plays. All year long, regardless of which QB was throwing it(Riley had many drops too, and he hardly throws with velocity). Our receivers have been at a D+ level most of this year with play making. Seriously, how many balls have they as a group caught 15+ yards down the field this year? Fewer than they have dropped, that is certain.

I am not giving a reciever a pass at all. I am just pointing out that the problems with catching aren't completely the recievers fault in all cases which is the impression I get from some of the posters here. A fastball is not a bad thing when it is delivered on time, but a fastball delivered early is in the recievers lap before he is expecting it and will get dropped. A ball thrown late, results in interceptions. Jake heaps has loads of talent and I am sure that he is going to be very good as he learns the offense better but he is still not performing at a level that has me trusting him to win games with his arm. In fact, I don't see that happening until next year.



I wonder if we had not landed Jake heaps (he went to Washington or somewhere else) if we would be giving the same pass to our QB if it were Lark or Munns who was making the same mistakes. I remember how quick everyone turned on Matt Berry or John Beck when they struggled. Heaps seems to not get the same scrutiny that I have seen of other QB's that have come and struggled when they were forced into starting too soon.

But you're making 2 distinct arguments now and they just don't jive: 1. Drops aren't the receivers' fault and 2. Jake should get more criticism for the offensive woes. The 2nd point is a given, no problem. But to place any blame on the QB at this point for drops is downright insulting. 2 hands is a catch. If he plain misses a guy it's not a drop, and it's a bad on Heaps. But when the ball hits a receiver's hands and is not caught it is his fault 100%. I don't care if it's shot out of a cannon, catch the d&*m ball!

mizzoucoug wrote:

Lawboy wrote:
Sorry, but giving a receiver a pass for dropping a "fast ball" is a joke. It is their job to catch it. Go watch an NFL game and see how hard he QB rips it over the middle every time. Watch Collie catch some passes from Manning. He throws it hard, just as Jake does, and it is considered a strength for Manning, not a weakness. The QBs job is to deliver the ball in a catchable spot. the receivers job to is to catch it. Period. Even when thrown hard. Just means our receiver corp needs more work at catching balls and are not that skilled, because balls get caught all over the country by receivers with similar passes to those dropped by the BYU crew. OUr TE group has been poor this year, our receivers have not made plays. All year long, regardless of which QB was throwing it(Riley had many drops too, and he hardly throws with velocity). Our receivers have been at a D+ level most of this year with play making. Seriously, how many balls have they as a group caught 15+ yards down the field this year? Fewer than they have dropped, that is certain.

I am not giving a reciever a pass at all. I am just pointing out that the problems with catching aren't completely the recievers fault in all cases which is the impression I get from some of the posters here. A fastball is not a bad thing when it is delivered on time, but a fastball delivered early is in the recievers lap before he is expecting it and will get dropped. A ball thrown late, results in interceptions. Jake heaps has loads of talent and I am sure that he is going to be very good as he learns the offense better but he is still not performing at a level that has me trusting him to win games with his arm. In fact, I don't see that happening until next year.



I wonder if we had not landed Jake heaps (he went to Washington or somewhere else) if we would be giving the same pass to our QB if it were Lark or Munns who was making the same mistakes. I remember how quick everyone turned on Matt Berry or John Beck when they struggled. Heaps seems to not get the same scrutiny that I have seen of other QB's that have come and struggled when they were forced into starting too soon.

But you're making 2 distinct arguments now and they just don't jive: 1. Drops aren't the receivers' fault and 2. Jake should get more criticism for the offensive woes. The 2nd point is a given, no problem. But to place any blame on the QB at this point for drops is downright insulting. 2 hands is a catch. If he plain misses a guy it's not a drop, and it's a bad on Heaps. But when the ball hits a receiver's hands and is not caught it is his fault 100%. I don't care if it's shot out of a cannon, catch the d&*m ball!

No, my point makes perfect sense. I am saying that there is a combination of things that are causing poor performances from our throw game and Jake heaps is part of the problem. Not the whole problem, part of the problem. Some of the drops that are being blamed on the recievers are balls hitting them in the helmet or in the pads. (if you get 2 hands on the ball you should catch it). All I am saying is that the timing of the offense is off right now due to poor play by the QB which over time is going to get resolved. You seem to be taking it quite personal that I think that Jake should be getting more blame for the miscues then he is.

If BYU wins the coin toss, they need to take the field with their offense and pound it away with their running game. They have to do whatever they can in order to not get behind early in the game. They are doomed if they go down by 10 or more in the 1st half because that will mean that Heaps will have to start forcing the issue with the pass. A ball-control offense is going to be the key if BYU has a prayer to compete with TCU.

frdbtr wrote:

frdbtr wrote:

Sorry, but giving a receiver a pass for dropping a "fast ball" is a joke. It is their job to catch it. Go watch an NFL game and see how hard he QB rips it over the middle every time. Watch Collie catch some passes from Manning. He throws it hard, just as Jake does, and it is considered a strength for Manning, not a weakness. The QBs job is to deliver the ball in a catchable spot. the receivers job to is to catch it. Period. Even when thrown hard. Just means our receiver corp needs more work at catching balls and are not that skilled, because balls get caught all over the country by receivers with similar passes to those dropped by the BYU crew. OUr TE group has been poor this year, our receivers have not made plays. All year long, regardless of which QB was throwing it(Riley had many drops too, and he hardly throws with velocity). Our receivers have been at a D+ level most of this year with play making. Seriously, how many balls have they as a group caught 15+ yards down the field this year? Fewer than they have dropped, that is certain.

I am not giving a reciever a pass at all. I am just pointing out that the problems with catching aren't completely the recievers fault in all cases which is the impression I get from some of the posters here. A fastball is not a bad thing when it is delivered on time, but a fastball delivered early is in the recievers lap before he is expecting it and will get dropped. A ball thrown late, results in interceptions. Jake heaps has loads of talent and I am sure that he is going to be very good as he learns the offense better but he is still not performing at a level that has me trusting him to win games with his arm. In fact, I don't see that happening until next year.



I wonder if we had not landed Jake heaps (he went to Washington or somewhere else) if we would be giving the same pass to our QB if it were Lark or Munns who was making the same mistakes. I remember how quick everyone turned on Matt Berry or John Beck when they struggled. Heaps seems to not get the same scrutiny that I have seen of other QB's that have come and struggled when they were forced into starting too soon.

But you're making 2 distinct arguments now and they just don't jive: 1. Drops aren't the receivers' fault and 2. Jake should get more criticism for the offensive woes. The 2nd point is a given, no problem. But to place any blame on the QB at this point for drops is downright insulting. 2 hands is a catch. If he plain misses a guy it's not a drop, and it's a bad on Heaps. But when the ball hits a receiver's hands and is not caught it is his fault 100%. I don't care if it's shot out of a cannon, catch the d&*m ball!

No, my point makes perfect sense. I am saying that there is a combination of things that are causing poor performances from our throw game and Jake heaps is part of the problem. Not the whole problem, part of the problem. Some of the drops that are being blamed on the recievers are balls hitting them in the helmet or in the pads. (if you get 2 hands on the ball you should catch it). All I am saying is that the timing of the offense is off right now due to poor play by the QB which over time is going to get resolved. You seem to be taking it quite personal that I think that Jake should be getting more blame for the miscues then he is.

LOL, not at all. Blame Heaps however much you want for the sucky offense all day and I won't disagree with you. My ONLY point is that the drops cannot be blamed on Heaps at all, not one iota, not for one second. Nothing personal about that.

I guess this thread is more Game Notes than about TCU.



As for why Heaps doesn't get the blamed heaped upon him is because........he's a true freshman and the main receivers are juniors and seniors. I don't compare Heaps to Hall because last season, Hall was a red shirt senior who is now a starting QB in the NFL. The receivers Heaps is working with have YEARS in the program and are supposed to be the leaders on offense since the backfield had to be replaced this season.



It's painfully obvious that we expected way too much from this bunch of receivers and Heaps is paying a price for it. IT is also obvious that the current group of TEs have failed to develop more quickly than expect, which is another let down with this team. The Oline finally showed up for a game Saturday and was the difference in the win. The running backs are the lone bright spot in producing with the Oline.



Heaps has been thrust into the starter's role because of missions, transfers and poor decisions by the coaches. He's making the best of it and having to play from behind like he's been forced to this season isn't fair to any QB, let alone a freshman QB.



I see growth on Heaps' part game after game, but the receivers have retarded that growth with their poor play.



Others have pointed out that these receivers did not have to carry the load last season. This season, they were expected to and they have failed so far this season. I believe if Heaps were throwing to Collie, George and Pitta, he'd look like a cagy veteran rather than a struggling freshman trying to guide a team that just doesn't have the tools for any QB to succeed.

CougarPeasant wrote:
I guess this thread is more Game Notes than about TCU.

The initial post has a link to the Game Notes BYU put out for this game, so go check it out. Some good info in it for this week.



I really think we have a chance to give TCU a game like OSU did. TCU is the better, more experienced team, and I expect that to win it for them, but I think we can compete in this one now. And I really expect us to try to pressure Dalton into mistakes--which is the TCU achilles heel.

frdbtr wrote:

No, my point makes perfect sense.

I love it when someone making a point has to further explain to someone else why the original argument made sense and was completely understandable. Awesome.

frdbtr wrote:
Last year these same guys were catching the same balls that they are dropping this year and there has been only 1 change that I can see that is different from last year and that is the person throwing the ball. I am not trying to put all blame on Jake Heaps...

Could have fooled me. This sounds exactly like putting the blame on one guy. Even though your later posts clearly and appropriately add blame on the receivers, that was not your original point. I'm with Lawboy and Mizzou on this one. But it's okay to be wrong once in a while. :D

CougarClaw wrote:

No, my point makes perfect sense.

I love it when someone making a point has to further explain to someone else why the original argument made sense and was completely understandable. Awesome.

frdbtr wrote:
Last year these same guys were catching the same balls that they are dropping this year and there has been only 1 change that I can see that is different from last year and that is the person throwing the ball. I am not trying to put all blame on Jake Heaps...

Could have fooled me. This sounds exactly like putting the blame on one guy. Even though your later posts clearly and appropriately add blame on the receivers, that was not your original point. I'm with Lawboy and Mizzou on this one. But it's okay to be wrong once in a while. :D

The problem I have with this issue is; since most of the people who overlook every flaw that Heaps currently has in his game and blame it on anyone else involved with the offense, is they force me to make ridiculous comparisons just to try to make a point. I have NEVER said that I thought Heaps was a bad QB. I have only said that he is a Freshman that IMO shouldn't have gotten the start this early. Unfortunately, BYU has no one else that is better then him right now. My initial point on this thread is that it would be a collosal mistake to turn the game over to Heaps arm to try to win it for us and I stand by that point. I defy anyone to make a case that Heaps currently has the ablility to either throw us back into a game or to win a game on the back of his arm. I come here and make a statement that currently has played out as factual so far this year (Anyone Remember FSU, Nevada, and USU where we got down early and Heaps looked terrible throwing 50 times per game trying to get us back into the game) that we only have a chance if we have our oline play well and our running game control the game and I get flamed that Heaps is awesome but his crappy wide recievers are dropping all his perfectly thrown balls. I want one of you guys calling me "wrong" to show me where I am wrong from what we have seen this year with our current offense.

I defy you to tell us which receiver is such a go to guy that the QB can rely on him to throw to constantly to win games. Sorry, but it goes both ways. And Heaps looks "terrible"(your word) because guys consistently drop 5-12 balls a game, kills drives, drop TDs and do not make plays. Heaps looked really good v. USU and his supporting cast did not. Seriously, 10 drops, 3 of which were TDs (2 on 1 drive), and you want to hammer him because he did not basically put it in the guys hands like a feather. GET REAL. Your critiques are so off, it is a joke and smacks of a bias. Really.

frdbtr wrote:

frdbtr wrote:

No, my point makes perfect sense.

I love it when someone making a point has to further explain to someone else why the original argument made sense and was completely understandable. Awesome.

frdbtr wrote:
Last year these same guys were catching the same balls that they are dropping this year and there has been only 1 change that I can see that is different from last year and that is the person throwing the ball. I am not trying to put all blame on Jake Heaps...

Could have fooled me. This sounds exactly like putting the blame on one guy. Even though your later posts clearly and appropriately add blame on the receivers, that was not your original point. I'm with Lawboy and Mizzou on this one. But it's okay to be wrong once in a while. :D

The problem I have with this issue is; since most of the people who overlook every flaw that Heaps currently has in his game and blame it on anyone else involved with the offense, is they force me to make ridiculous comparisons just to try to make a point. I have NEVER said that I thought Heaps was a bad QB. I have only said that he is a Freshman that IMO shouldn't have gotten the start this early. Unfortunately, BYU has no one else that is better then him right now. My initial point on this thread is that it would be a collosal mistake to turn the game over to Heaps arm to try to win it for us and I stand by that point. I defy anyone to make a case that Heaps currently has the ablility to either throw us back into a game or to win a game on the back of his arm. I come here and make a statement that currently has played out as factual so far this year (Anyone Remember FSU, Nevada, and USU where we got down early and Heaps looked terrible throwing 50 times per game trying to get us back into the game) that we only have a chance if we have our oline play well and our running game control the game and I get flamed that Heaps is awesome but his crappy wide recievers are dropping all his perfectly thrown balls. I want one of you guys calling me "wrong" to show me where I am wrong from what we have seen this year with our current offense.

any number of posters here have already done this for you, but you simply won't have it. Your real argument I'm hearing is contained in the last post,' IMO {he] shouldn't have gotten the start this early." Now with this as the central core of your argument and seen through this filter it's easy to see why you are going after the FRESHMAN QB rather than the UPPERclassmen WR who have had alligator arms all season, rather than stepping up and helping the extremely gifted and hard working frosh QB who has more often than not been right on the money with his throws. as has also been repeatedly pointed out young Mr. Heaps is not throwing to the same receivers as Max was the last few years. I am perfectly willing to continue to watch Jake grow into the job, and if Lark or Munns had the upside Jake has[which they don't in my opinion],then i'd be patient with them as well, and would also like them to show up to do more than just hand off to the RB this weekend, as you seem to desire. Put simply Jake is the future for BYU FB in the next few years, regardless whether Mckay Jacobsen or Luke Ashworth are there to drop his throws which hit them in their hands or not.

Lawboy wrote:
I defy you to tell us which receiver is such a go to guy that the QB can rely on him to throw to constantly to win games. Sorry, but it goes both ways. And Heaps looks "terrible"(your word) because guys consistently drop 5-12 balls a game, kills drives, drop TDs and do not make plays. Heaps looked really good v. USU and his supporting cast did not. Seriously, 10 drops, 3 of which were TDs (2 on 1 drive), and you want to hammer him because he did not basically put it in the guys hands like a feather. GET REAL. Your critiques are so off, it is a joke and smacks of a bias. Really.

I thought that everyone looked terrible with USU, offensively and defensively. To his credit Heaps played hard from first to last whistle but he still looked terrible. Some of his throws looked good, others did not.

clemdiggitydog1 wrote:

CougarClaw wrote:

No, my point makes perfect sense.

I love it when someone making a point has to further explain to someone else why the original argument made sense and was completely understandable. Awesome.

frdbtr wrote:
Last year these same guys were catching the same balls that they are dropping this year and there has been only 1 change that I can see that is different from last year and that is the person throwing the ball. I am not trying to put all blame on Jake Heaps...

Could have fooled me. This sounds exactly like putting the blame on one guy. Even though your later posts clearly and appropriately add blame on the receivers, that was not your original point. I'm with Lawboy and Mizzou on this one. But it's okay to be wrong once in a while. :D

The problem I have with this issue is; since most of the people who overlook every flaw that Heaps currently has in his game and blame it on anyone else involved with the offense, is they force me to make ridiculous comparisons just to try to make a point. I have NEVER said that I thought Heaps was a bad QB. I have only said that he is a Freshman that IMO shouldn't have gotten the start this early. Unfortunately, BYU has no one else that is better then him right now. My initial point on this thread is that it would be a collosal mistake to turn the game over to Heaps arm to try to win it for us and I stand by that point. I defy anyone to make a case that Heaps currently has the ablility to either throw us back into a game or to win a game on the back of his arm. I come here and make a statement that currently has played out as factual so far this year (Anyone Remember FSU, Nevada, and USU where we got down early and Heaps looked terrible throwing 50 times per game trying to get us back into the game) that we only have a chance if we have our oline play well and our running game control the game and I get flamed that Heaps is awesome but his crappy wide recievers are dropping all his perfectly thrown balls. I want one of you guys calling me "wrong" to show me where I am wrong from what we have seen this year with our current offense.

any number of posters here have already done this for you, but you simply won't have it. Your real argument I'm hearing is contained in the last post,' IMO {he] shouldn't have gotten the start this early." Now with as the central core of your argument and seen through this filter it's easy to see why you are going after the FRESHMAN QB rather than the UPPERclassmen WR who have had alligator arms all season, rather than stepping up and helping the extremely gifted and hard working frosh QB who has more often than not been right on the money with his throws. as has also been repeatedly pointed out young Mr. Heaps is not throwing to the same receivers as Max was the last few years. I am perfectly willing to continue to watch Jake grow into the job, and if Lark or Munns had the upside Jake has[which they don't in my opinion],then i'd be patient with them as well, and would also like them to show up to do more than just hand off to the RB this weekend, as you seem to desire. Put simply Jake is the future for BYU FB in the next few years, regardless whether Mckay Jacobsen or Luke Ashworth are there to drop his throws which hit them in their hands or not.

Hmmm, handing the ball off 62 times seemed to work against SDSU. I would much rather see him hand it off all game and watch a win then see him throw it 60 times a game and watch a loss.

Back on the odds:



Only two games have bigger underdogs than us, BS-U over SJSU (39.5) and Fresno over NMSU (31 points). The way I see it, to the powers that be, TCU looks really strong and BYU looks really weak. 2 wks ago I would have gone with BYU as 29 point underdogs, but this week I think the new attitude and hard work keep it closer than that. I may even be tempted to put some money down on this one.