Our team is slow, and it's not cause we're white

taekwondave wrote:
Our black guys are slow too. I've said it a million times before and I'll keep saying it until our team can start running track with TCU: COACH OMER DOES NOT KNOW HOW TO COACH SPEED.



He can coach strength. Many people will attest to that. But he DOESN'T know how to make people FASTER. He simply focuses on the wrong muscle groups. And for Nephi's sake! INCORPORATE SOME STINKING YOGA!!!!

Great post

runbyu1 wrote:

taekwondave wrote:
many of our guys who HAVE remained speedy under the Omer regime have admitted to using outside trainers and taking it easy in the weight room with Omer.

Citation?

Well, 1 for sure would be Brian Kehl who is advertising on the radio for TOSH and he talks about how he trained with TOSH for speed.

Yeah, but was this training while he was playing at BYU, or was it after?

hawkwing wrote:

hawkwing wrote:

many of our guys who HAVE remained speedy under the Omer regime have admitted to using outside trainers and taking it easy in the weight room with Omer.

Citation?

Well, 1 for sure would be Brian Kehl who is advertising on the radio for TOSH and he talks about how he trained with TOSH for speed.

Yeah, but was this training while he was playing at BYU, or was it after?

IIRC he starts the commercial with, "Since leaving BYU I've learned..."

kitic77 wrote:

runbyu1 wrote:

taekwondave wrote:
many of our guys who HAVE remained speedy under the Omer regime have admitted to using outside trainers and taking it easy in the weight room with Omer.

Citation?

Well, 1 for sure would be Brian Kehl who is advertising on the radio for TOSH and he talks about how he trained with TOSH for speed.

Yeah, but was this training while he was playing at BYU, or was it after?

IIRC he starts the commercial with, "Since leaving BYU I've learned..."

So it certainly wasn't something he learned while at BYU

Tell me exactly how much training can increase speed. .05? .1? How much? Because no way can you turn a 4.7 guy into a 4.45 guy with training. Just NO. Training can maybe increase speed by a fractional amount, not by a huge margin. BYU's problem is that we rarely gets guys coming into BYU that run a 4.4 or better in the first place. We could probably count those guys on this roster of 105 on 1 freaking hand. And that is the problem. BYU does not recruit enough raw speed. And the game is becoming more and more about speed at certain key positions. Do not need it everywhere, but need it in order to have playmakers, and we lack playmakers right now. And that is the simple truth of the matter.

Lawboy wrote:
Tell me exactly how much training can increase speed. .05? .1? How much? Because no way can you turn a 4.7 guy into a 4.45 guy with training. Just NO. Training can maybe increase speed by a fractional amount, not by a huge margin. BYU's problem is that we rarely gets guys coming into BYU that run a 4.4 or better in the first place. We could probably count those guys on this roster of 105 on 1 freaking hand. And that is the problem. BYU does not recruit enough raw speed. And the game is becoming more and more about speed at certain key positions. Do not need it everywhere, but need it in order to have playmakers, and we lack playmakers right now. And that is the simple truth of the matter.

It's really unfortunate that you think this. It's simply not true. You need to realize that the fast kids we recruit are fast for a reason: proper training. They developed the right muscles and thus they are propelled forward by those muscles at a faster rate. Saying you can't increase speed through training is like saying you can't increase your bench press through training. It's hogwash. I didn't just increase my own personal speed through training .05 of a second, I increased it a WHOLE SECOND. I was timed at 5.5 average and I got down to a 4.44 average (4.39 being my best time). I know many people think that speed is like height, (or black skin) you either have it or you don't, but that is SIMPLY ignorance of the facts.

Lawboy wrote:
Tell me exactly how much training can increase speed. .05? .1? How much? Because no way can you turn a 4.7 guy into a 4.45 guy with training. Just NO. Training can maybe increase speed by a fractional amount, not by a huge margin. BYU's problem is that we rarely gets guys coming into BYU that run a 4.4 or better in the first place. We could probably count those guys on this roster of 105 on 1 freaking hand. And that is the problem. BYU does not recruit enough raw speed. And the game is becoming more and more about speed at certain key positions. Do not need it everywhere, but need it in order to have playmakers, and we lack playmakers right now. And that is the simple truth of the matter.

Also, as far as BYU not recruiting enough raw speed, that isn't the case as I've seen it. LOTS of guys come in here touting a sub 4.4 forty time as a recruit. But six months in our program and we all assume it must have been mis-measured. Again, this comes from assuming speed never fluctuates and training has little to do with it. That is all false.

taekwondave wrote:

Tell me exactly how much training can increase speed. .05? .1? How much? Because no way can you turn a 4.7 guy into a 4.45 guy with training. Just NO. Training can maybe increase speed by a fractional amount, not by a huge margin. BYU's problem is that we rarely gets guys coming into BYU that run a 4.4 or better in the first place. We could probably count those guys on this roster of 105 on 1 freaking hand. And that is the problem. BYU does not recruit enough raw speed. And the game is becoming more and more about speed at certain key positions. Do not need it everywhere, but need it in order to have playmakers, and we lack playmakers right now. And that is the simple truth of the matter.

Also, as far as BYU not recruiting enough raw speed, that isn't the case as I've seen it. LOTS of guys come in here touting a sub 4.4 forty time as a recruit. But six months in our program and we all assume it must have been mis-measured. Again, this comes from assuming speed never fluctuates and training has little to do with it. That is all false.

90% of high school kids touting sub 4.4 forties are liars who were timed by their dad with a stopwatch that doesn't go above 4.5. We rarely get those kids because we don't get a lot of liars come to accept the honor code, and those kids with actual speed like to use that speed to get with the ladies and don't come here either.

taekwondave wrote:



It's really unfortunate that you think this. It's simply not true. You need to realize that the fast kids we recruit are fast for a reason: proper training. They developed the right muscles and thus they are propelled forward by those muscles at a faster rate. Saying you can't increase speed through training is like saying you can't increase your bench press through training. It's hogwash. I didn't just increase my own personal speed through training .05 of a second, I increased it a WHOLE SECOND. I was timed at 5.5 average and I got down to a 4.44 average (4.39 being my best time). I know many people think that speed is like height, (or black skin) you either have it or you don't, but that is SIMPLY ignorance of the facts.

So you dropped a whole second at BYU when Omer was there, and you are saying he sucks? I don't get it. Also, what sport were you training for? Not football I am sure. I am also guessing that you lost about 100 lbs, too, with that speed change.



And how many high school kids really get proper speed training? I'd say less than 5%.

Lawboy wrote:
Tell me exactly how much training can increase speed. .05? .1? How much? Because no way can you turn a 4.7 guy into a 4.45 guy with training. Just NO. Training can maybe increase speed by a fractional amount, not by a huge margin. BYU's problem is that we rarely gets guys coming into BYU that run a 4.4 or better in the first place. We could probably count those guys on this roster of 105 on 1 freaking hand. And that is the problem. BYU does not recruit enough raw speed. And the game is becoming more and more about speed at certain key positions. Do not need it everywhere, but need it in order to have playmakers, and we lack playmakers right now. And that is the simple truth of the matter.

0.1 seconds is huge in a 40-yard time.



Hypothetical, two guys running the 40 and start at exactly the same time. One guy finishes in 4.6 and the other at 4.7. When the first guy crossed the line, the other still had 2.5 feet more to run. That's more than an arm length. That's a tackle missed.



If the first guy runs 4.65, he's still more than a foot ahead. That's an arm tackle than can be broken or run through. It's not a wrap up and drive through.

Very solid points, Kitic

Speed is definitely genetics + coaching. The point is that we do actually recruit some fast kids, they just get slow after being here a while. This can be attributed to no one but the Strength and Conditioning coach, who is super old school and is not up on recent research. Any former BYU athlete who knows current research can tell you that Omer is very behind in some of his methods.

P.S. That said, Omer might be the best PURE STRENGTH coach out there. Our guys continually impress on the weights at the combine, etc.

runbyu1 wrote:
P.S. That said, Omer might be the best PURE STRENGTH coach out there. Our guys continually impress on the weights at the combine, etc.

I'll second that. Our boys are STRONG. Unfortunately strong in areas that don't make you fast.

I agree. A .1 change would be phenomenal. A .05 would be great as well. Over 1 second sounds outrageous to me. Sorry, but you do not turn a 4.7 guy in a 4.3 guy. Not gonna happen. But you might get 4.7 to a 4.58, which sounds reasonable. But again, the goal is to add stengnth and power without losing speed. so you want the speed to begin with.

Lawboy wrote:

It's really unfortunate that you think this. It's simply not true. You need to realize that the fast kids we recruit are fast for a reason: proper training. They developed the right muscles and thus they are propelled forward by those muscles at a faster rate. Saying you can't increase speed through training is like saying you can't increase your bench press through training. It's hogwash. I didn't just increase my own personal speed through training .05 of a second, I increased it a WHOLE SECOND. I was timed at 5.5 average and I got down to a 4.44 average (4.39 being my best time). I know many people think that speed is like height, (or black skin) you either have it or you don't, but that is SIMPLY ignorance of the facts.

So you dropped a whole second at BYU when Omer was there, and you are saying he sucks? I don't get it. Also, what sport were you training for? Not football I am sure. I am also guessing that you lost about 100 lbs, too, with that speed change.



And how many high school kids really get proper speed training? I'd say less than 5%.

I didn't drop a whole second while training with Omer. I dropped a whole second since I was a senior in high school NOT doing taekwondo. And when I got fast I didn't lose any weight. I actually gained 10 lbs. Muscle is required for speed. Muscle weighs something. But I DID lose some vertical leaping ability after I stopped training with Omer since I was no longer doing so many power cleans, dead lifts and squats. But there's no question I got faster.



But I know some don't seem to train at all and yet are fast so what gives? Here's what I think: they ARE training. They just don't know it.



Looking back I can track when I was fast and when I was slow to when I was doing taekwondo and when I wasn't.In taekwondo you kick VERY high. EVERY day. A LOT. Unbeknownst to me, doing so strengthens your hip flexor muscles, which just happen to be the prime movers in sprinting. Although I didn't know it, I was speed training every time I stepped into the dojang (korean version of dojo). Doing taekwondo and not doing taekwondo was the difference between being one of the three fastest guys on my soccer and football teams as a teenager and being no faster than a fat linebacker (despite never being fat) less than a year later. Training matters.

Haha, give me three months and unless you already run a 4.5 forty I'll shave .3 seconds off the forty of EVERY POSTER ON THIS BOARD. Every one of you would be faster with the right training.

Shoot, you know what? Give me a MONTH and I'll make EVERY ONE OF YOU NOTICEABLY FASTER just to prove my point.

Speed isn't the priority at BYU. Strength is. The limited amount of time our guys spend in the gym is probably geared primarily towards increasing strength. Little if any priority is made on speed.



The mere fact that the coaches only time a player's 40-yard dash once every year denotes the lack of priority on speed. If increasing speed were a priority, players would be timed monthly, there would be a competitive spirit about it and incentives would be provided similar to what the team does for bench pressing, etc.



It almost seems like the coaches have thrown their hands up in the air when it comes to speed and have simply "accepted" the fact that we're slow. Instead of acknowledge the importance of being fast and working to resolve the lack thereof they'd rather game plan to accomodate the lack of speed, which of course doesn't work when you play teams that are faster than you across the board (TCU).

Gunk wrote:
Speed isn't the priority at BYU. Strength is. The limited amount of time our guys spend in the gym is probably geared primarily towards increasing strength. Little if any priority is made on speed.

That's the point. Speed is something that can be coached to a degree, so emphasis needs to be put on improvement in general--players should be expected to get stronger AND faster. One reason why BYU offensive linemen struggle at the next level is because they are just big, but not fast. Maybe you can help, but I can't think of any BYU offensive linemen that have started in the NFL that graduated later than John Tait (1998).