Jesus an anarchist?

Don't remember what I was searching for when I found this but I saved it to a file because I thought it was interesting. Could start a decent conversation.



file:///Users/davidschmidt/Desktop/Misc/Jesus%20Is%20an%20Anarchist,%20by%20James%20Redford%20--%20anti-state.com.webarchive



Guy has some good points. Anarchy has always carried a negative connotation in my mind, but the way this guy presents it really made me think twice about what I grew up assuming. Like many others I have always thought of government as a necessary evil, but is it?

Oh...you know what? It's REALLY long. So I doubt enough people will read it for there to be a real discussion about it. Just realized that. But it's an interesting read anyway so if you have the time...

No, Christ is not an anarchist. He believes in an absolute monarchy where you either follow the King or are banished from the Kingdom.

kitic77 wrote:
No, Christ is not an anarchist. He believes in an absolute monarchy where you either follow the King or are banished from the Kingdom.

Thanks jerk. There goes that discussion. ;)

declocoug wrote:

No, Christ is not an anarchist. He believes in an absolute monarchy where you either follow the King or are banished from the Kingdom.

Thanks jerk. There goes that discussion. ;)

Sorry, But the Savior clearly believes in the rule of law and of following the law. He believes in the rule of law so much that he gave his life willingly satisfy the demands of justice. He believes so completely that there must be punishment for those who break the law that he volunteered to be punished for everyone who would accept him being punished for them.



Now, he does set conditions for that acceptance, but the price must be paid. He has basically said, you can have me pay the price or you can pay it yourself.



But he is not an anarchist. He may believe in a higher law which some interpret as him not believing in the rule of law, but this is simply a misinterpretation.

Well there you have it folks. Don't read it. Just listen to kitic. He's so sure of himself he COULDN'T be wrong. :lol:

kitic77 wrote:

kitic77 wrote:
No, Christ is not an anarchist. He believes in an absolute monarchy where you either follow the King or are banished from the Kingdom.

Thanks jerk. There goes that discussion. ;)

Sorry, But the Savior clearly believes in the rule of law and of following the law. He believes in the rule of law so much that he gave his life willingly satisfy the demands of justice. He believes so completely that there must be punishment for those who break the law that he volunteered to be punished for everyone who would accept him being punished for them.



Now, he does set conditions for that acceptance, but the price must be paid. He has basically said, you can have me pay the price or you can pay it yourself.



But he is not an anarchist. He may believe in a higher law which some interpret as him not believing in the rule of law, but this is simply a misinterpretation.

I think the argument made in the write up is that the law of God (the golden rule) is the only law that Jesus feels the need to adhere to. I think he's got some valid points.



I agree with you in the sense that Jesus believes in God's law, but I don't think God's laws and man's laws are the same things. Yeah, they're both referred to as "laws" but they're clearly different ideas. I think that Jesus understood the kingdom of God as being a state of happiness, and no man that does not understand that he is not separate from other people, but one with them, and therefore treats them how he would like to be treated, is ever truly happy, and therefore cannot enter the kingdom of God (happiness).



I think a lot of people on earth think of God's kingdom as an actual PLACE that other people (God for example) can choose to keep you out of if you don't placate their wills. I don't buy that. Joseph Smith said that Hell was a state of mind and I'm willing to bet that goes for heaven as well.



But, unlike Kitic, I could be wrong. ;)

The golden rule is not the ultimate law, it's not the highest law of God, it's not even that great a rule.

Schmoe wrote:
The golden rule is not the ultimate law, it's not the highest law of God, it's not even that great a rule.

Interesting. What makes you think any of those things?

kitic77 wrote:
No, Christ is not an anarchist. He believes in an absolute monarchy where you either follow the King or are banished from the Kingdom.

I actually agree with this statement. I think the absolute monarchy of which you speak is EVER present. The monarch being love itself. When we make love our rule, our law, our guide, and our God, and we do what love would do in any and all things, we are happy. Happiness is the kingdom of God in my mind. So yes, you either obey the monarch...or you're kicked out of the kingdom.

taekwondave wrote:
I agree with you in the sense that Jesus believes in God's law, but I don't think God's laws and man's laws are the same things. Yeah, they're both referred to as "laws" but they're clearly different ideas. I think that Jesus understood the kingdom of God as being a state of happiness, and no man that does not understand that he is not separate from other people, but one with them, and therefore treats them how he would like to be treated, is ever truly happy, and therefore cannot enter the kingdom of God (happiness).



I think a lot of people on earth think of God's kingdom as an actual PLACE that other people (God for example) can choose to keep you out of if you don't placate their wills. I don't buy that. Joseph Smith said that Hell was a state of mind and I'm willing to bet that goes for heaven as well.



But, unlike Kitic, I could be wrong. ;)

I'm not wrong on this sorry. And Jesus also believed in the laws of his land. He allowed himself to be put to death. He could have stopped it. He could have said, this was a banana republic court trial. That it wasn't fair. But he was found guilty and the punishment decreed was death. He accepted it. It was legal.



Hell is a state of mind. The kingdom of heaven is not. In reality, there is no heaven or hell. All, except those who commit the most egregious of sins for which there is no repentance, will inherit a kingdom. Those who follow their King will inherit His kingdom.

taekwondave wrote:

No, Christ is not an anarchist. He believes in an absolute monarchy where you either follow the King or are banished from the Kingdom.

I actually agree with this statement. I think the absolute monarchy of which you speak is EVER present. The monarch being love itself. When we make love our rule, our law, our guide, and our God, and we do what love would do in any and all things, we are happy. Happiness is the kingdom of God in my mind. So yes, you either obey the monarch...or you're kicked out of the kingdom.

No, the Monarch is not love. The Monarch is Christ. It is not some esoteric emotion. It is a living being of flesh and bone. When we make CHRIST our rule, our law, our guide we are not always happy. But we are secure on our path.



Granted Christ is love. But TKD, to be frank with you, you need to adjust your allegiance. Christ needs to be the center of our lives. Not love, not happiness not anything else. Those things can change. But Christ cannot.



It's semantics and very slight difference, but I think it's significant. You are correct that you either obey the Lord or your gone. But the kingdom of heaven is NOT happiness. The kingdom of heaven is and will be an actual place. Not a mere emotion.

kitic77 wrote:

I'm not wrong on this sorry. And Jesus also believed in the laws of his land. He allowed himself to be put to death. He could have stopped it. He could have said, this was a banana republic court trial. That it wasn't fair. But he was found guilty and the punishment decreed was death. He accepted it. It was legal.



Hell is a state of mind. The kingdom of heaven is not. In reality, there is no heaven or hell. All, except those who commit the most egregious of sins for which there is no repentance, will inherit a kingdom. Those who follow their King will inherit His kingdom.[/quote]



Of course you're not.



However, Jesus was put to death CONTRARY to the laws of his land. So by going along with the BREAKING of the laws of his land, what was he professing?

kitic77 wrote:

kitic77 wrote:
No, Christ is not an anarchist. He believes in an absolute monarchy where you either follow the King or are banished from the Kingdom.

I actually agree with this statement. I think the absolute monarchy of which you speak is EVER present. The monarch being love itself. When we make love our rule, our law, our guide, and our God, and we do what love would do in any and all things, we are happy. Happiness is the kingdom of God in my mind. So yes, you either obey the monarch...or you're kicked out of the kingdom.

No, the Monarch is not love. The Monarch is Christ. It is not some esoteric emotion. It is a living being of flesh and bone. When we make CHRIST our rule, our law, our guide we are not always happy. But we are secure on our path.



Granted Christ is love. But TKD, to be frank with you, you need to adjust your allegiance. Christ needs to be the center of our lives. Not love, not happiness not anything else. Those things can change. But Christ cannot.



It's semantics and very slight difference, but I think it's significant. You are correct that you either obey the Lord or your gone. But the kingdom of heaven is NOT happiness. The kingdom of heaven is and will be an actual place. Not a mere emotion.

I kindly disagree. But I must be wrong. Because I'm not nearly as sure as you...

Mars wrote:


Kitic's spot-on here. Christ is the ultimate law-abider in the truest sense, and the final power seat of heavenly government.

I agree. And Christ is love.

Powerfully said and true Kitic.

OH! Hawks here. Time to wrap it up, everybody. ;)



By the way, has anybody actually read the article on Christ and anarchy yet or are we just going to continue to disagree with the title and premise without hearing the argument?

taekwondave wrote:

The golden rule is not the ultimate law, it's not the highest law of God, it's not even that great a rule.

Interesting. What makes you think any of those things?

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I wouldn't want someone to sentence me to go to prison, so if I followed that rule it would make me a very bad judge. I wouldn't want to be arrested, so if I followed that rule I'd be a lousy police officer. Etc, etc, etc. Also, just because I want to be treated a certain way, doesn't mean that everyone does. People have different needs and wants, especially when it comes to the way they are treated and/or paid attention to. To follow the golden rule is to assume that everyone has the same wants and needs that I do, which is not true. There are many times in life, probably on a daily basis, that I treat others differently than I would like to be treated, because they are not me and I've learned that they like to be treated differently. It's a very narcissistic way to look at the world to assume that everyone is just like you.



That's all I'm going to say about it, I already know that the ideology that I follow is VERY different from the one that you do and you will probably not agree with me. Still, I've gotten sick of seeing you cite the golden rule as the ultimate law when it is not.

taekwondave wrote:
However, Jesus was put to death CONTRARY to the laws of his land. So by going along with the BREAKING of the laws of his land, what was he professing?

I believe the Romans were legally allowed to put the guilty to death. Christ was found guilty and the punishment affixed was death by crucifixion. Treason was punishable by death. The Jews accused him of inciting a revolution against Pilate. He was found guilty and killed. The law was followed, albeit speciously.