We need to quit with this "well considering..." talk

Italics wrote:
I can hear it now...



"despite the fact that we shot so poorly tonight and struggled against the zone, I'll take the away victory..."



This team has some major issues to work on, folks.

Can put this post into this category for your post history?

Italics wrote:
Check my post history - all I have said TIME AND TIME again is that we are a good team

I get annoyed with this thread every time I see it.



How about for once, we enjoy the ride. We're not getting Jimmer or Jax back for another year.



There's more to college hoops than the final four.



We've played very few games at the Marriot Center this season... there have been years where if this were the case, we'd have 1 win right now.. including our awesome to watch 2003 team that laid eggs on the road all season.



(this goes for those that spent hours upon hours with the Heaps/Nelson discussion... ultimately it was fruitless...sometimes we just have to sit back and watch... our relentless criticisms don't really change the outcome)

kitic77 wrote:

I can hear it now...



"despite the fact that we shot so poorly tonight and struggled against the zone, I'll take the away victory..."



This team has some major issues to work on, folks.

Can put this post into this category for your post history?

Italics wrote:
Check my post history - all I have said TIME AND TIME again is that we are a good team

I'm not sure how saying our teams has some serious issues means we're not a good team.



Now if I said we were a GREAT team and then said something like that...



As I said before, some people see the W, and that's it.

That's why fans of teams like Cleveland State would probably be in shock if their basketball team played a decent opponent and lost.

craigoscarson wrote:
I get annoyed with this thread every time I see it.



How about for once, we enjoy the ride. We're not getting Jimmer or Jax back for another year.



There's more to college hoops than the final four.



We've played very few games at the Marriot Center this season... there have been years where if this were the case, we'd have 1 win right now.. including our awesome to watch 2003 team that laid eggs on the road all season.



(this goes for those that spent hours upon hours with the Heaps/Nelson discussion... ultimately it was fruitless...sometimes we just have to sit back and watch... our relentless criticisms don't really change the outcome)

This whole post is EXTREMELY ironic considering you were the one throwing a fit over the 2-QB system... in fact, you said if they didn't stop it that you would give up on BYU sports and never give them another dollar of your money again.



Enjoy the ride... don't complain.



Right.

Italics wrote:

I get annoyed with this thread every time I see it.



How about for once, we enjoy the ride. We're not getting Jimmer or Jax back for another year.



There's more to college hoops than the final four.



We've played very few games at the Marriot Center this season... there have been years where if this were the case, we'd have 1 win right now.. including our awesome to watch 2003 team that laid eggs on the road all season.



(this goes for those that spent hours upon hours with the Heaps/Nelson discussion... ultimately it was fruitless...sometimes we just have to sit back and watch... our relentless criticisms don't really change the outcome)

This whole post is EXTREMELY ironic considering you were the one throwing a fit over the 2-QB system... in fact, you said if they didn't stop it that you would give up on BYU sports and never give them another dollar of your money again.



Enjoy the ride... don't complain.



Right.

You can't find a single post of me making a fit about the 2 qb system, and you certainly can't link wins or losses; or the qb system as to why I would consider stopping contributing to BYU... I made a conscious effort to stay out of the Heaps vs Nelson debate, except to say that as a true freshman he's entitled to make mistakes and we'll lose games as a result. Lost games which I expected and predicted, long before anyone else on this forum did. So in fact, that only goes to promote my feeling about enjoying the ride with this hoops team.



My entire point all football season long was to keep an even keel and enjoy the ride... I assure you that any regular read this year would back me up on that... I simply did not complain much, unless it was about the receiving corps and oneill chambers. I predicted a tough early season and several lossesbefore the season started and I also predicted we'd make it to a bowl game before it seemed remotely sane to do so. Feel free to check my posts...



My point about donating to BYU (or not doing so) was about one thing and one thing only and it had nothing to do with wins and losses or anything on the field... which is what this entire thread pertains to. It had to do with the MWC giving TV concessions ... The MWC didn't budge so BYU never had to decide to stay in light of concessions. My concern was that BYU would do what some suggested and bail as a form of pride and anger, even if the MWC gave in. I never had to worry about that actual hypothetical because the MWC is stupider than I even gave them credit for. It also had nothing to do with being a fan of BYU or not, it hypothetically had to do with not being able to support a terrible decision (which BYU makes very few of... the last of which was how they handled Elaine Michaelis, which several of my BYU friends did indeed not donate that year...) BYU isn't perfect, they make mistakes too and their boosters need to let them know when it happens.



Please avoid pulling a Mars and simply inventing an argument that doesn't exist, it's petty and unattractive, particularly when I can so easily refute it.



Nearly everything I posted this year during the football season pertains to my belief that we need to enjoy the ride; and what a ride it was this football season and what a ride it's been with this hoops team.

^ That didn't address at all the cold hard fact that you said you'd give up on BYU sports if they didn't stop the 2-QB system. I remember you saying how ridiculous you thought it was.



I'm not going to dig through your posts... it's not worth it. You remember making that promise, I don't need to convince you.



It's not worth it anyway... I don't even think that what you said was all that bad. I'm just simply pointing out the fact that it's ironic, that's all.



PS - This thread is not about wins and losses. It's about people using wins as a shield against any and all logical points made about the serious weaknesses of this team

Italics wrote:
^ That didn't address at all the cold hard fact that you said you'd give up on BYU sports if they didn't stop the 2-QB system. I remember you saying how ridiculous you thought it was.



I'm not going to dig through your posts... it's not worth it. You remember making that promise, I don't need to convince you.



It's not worth it anyway... I don't even think that what you said was all that bad. I'm just simply pointing out the fact that it's ironic, that's all.



PS - This thread is not about wins and losses. It's about people using wins as a shield against any and all logical points made about the serious weaknesses of this team

Again, your confabulatory nature is appalling. I never once said a thing about the 2 qb system this entire year, except that Nelson did not have the arm strength that some believed he had. Do your homework or don't post, it just makes you look silly. My donation statement had nothing to do with on the field performance, in fact it had nothing to do with football persay; just about politics of independence vs the mwc. It wasn't a popular statement I made, but it had nothing to do with performance and you wont' have anyone that can back you up in the contrary. It was a hypothetical addressing what some on this forum said BYU should do just to spite the MWC; I on the other hand said that this was business and that anger and spite are not a good enough reason to bail on the MWC IF they gave into our demands. Since they didn't do so, then BYU never had to even make that decision; however Tom Holmoe had suggested more than once that they would have listened if the MWC gave in to their broadcasting demands.



Regardless, this thread is annoying and short sighted. Yep, our team has short comings, we knew that and expected it before the season started; there were a litany of posts about Davies inconsistency, Collinsworths not being able to shoot outside, etc. etc. etc. We're not hardly a perfect team, but the sky is falling attitude is frankly disgusting considering our record.



It's okay to be happy with the result and still be incontent about some of the performance. To assume that we're content about the performance is shortsighted and a tad insulting. I've been around hoops for a long time (longer than you've been alive) and I've ranted about this teams inconsistency... but that doesn't mean I'm unhappy with the results, a top 10 RPI, a national ranking, a beatdown of Arizona that made front page sports everywhere (in spite of next to no TV for it)... these are the results I hoped for at the onset of the season.



However there's not a BYU fan alive that isn't happy about 11-1 right now; if they are, they're lying (something you're becoming quite adept at; we'll see if you're equally as adept as apology when you realize your statement was a blatant lie).

craigoscarson:



With very few exceptions, your posts are very well thought out, and I appreciate your insight. My opinion is that no-one should ever make accusations without being able to back them up. "I'm not going to dig through your posts" is a cop-out, and italics owes you an apology.



I might have been a little nervous last night, but I enjoyed seeing the Cougars win despite the laughable commentary by the Weber State radio team. I am definitely enjoying the ride.

Italics wrote:

Italics wrote:
I can hear it now...



"despite the fact that we shot so poorly tonight and struggled against the zone, I'll take the away victory..."



This team has some major issues to work on, folks.

Can put this post into this category for your post history?

Italics wrote:
Check my post history - all I have said TIME AND TIME again is that we are a good team

I'm not sure how saying our teams has some serious issues means we're not a good team.

Now that statement seems ironic IMHO...but maybe I'm wrong...I am sure there are many couples that have serious issues but are still a good couple, or many drug addicts that have serious issues but are still good drug addicts, or many Utards that have serious issues but are still good Utards. In my experience as a former player, and former high school coach now turned school admin, I have yet to see a team that had "serious" issues be considered a "good" team. I too have been annoyed at this post. I don't comment that often, but have been a lurker on this board as well as the old Cougar Blue board and the MWC boards for several years, and must say that I have noticed a similar negative pattern in your posting style Italics. I have no problem with your informed opinions, but your "chicken little the sky is falling" routine has grown stale. No doubt this team and individuals have areas in which to improve. I have no doubt that Coach Rose, the coaching staff, and the players themselves are acutely more aware of those shortcomings than any of us "fans" who follow the team. I also have now doubt that they will do all they can to improve in those areas so that you yourself, as well as all the rest of us true blue Cougar fans can sleep well at night. I for one am very impressed with this team who has in the last month or so traipsed all over the country from South Padre Island, TX, to Omaha, NE, to Glenns Falls, NY (via Albany), to Energy Solutions Arena, to Anaheim, CA, to Ogden, UT and only managed 1 loss to a UCLA team that was playing in the namesake tournament of the greatest coach in not just UCLA history, but the history of the college game itself, Coach John Wooden who had just passed away this past year, a UCLA team that would do everything in their power to honor Coach Wooden with a win, and yet we competed gallantly in that one loss and all you can do is call out this team with your "this team has some serious issues to work on, folks." comment. Seems to me like this reeks of the "pot calling the kettle black." As I stated before, I will enjoy this team's ride until the final curtain falls. Go Cougars!

IowaCougar wrote:
craigoscarson:



With very few exceptions, your posts are very well thought out, and I appreciate your insight. My opinion is that no-one should ever make accusations without being able to back them up. "I'm not going to dig through your posts" is a cop-out, and italics owes you an apology.



I might have been a little nervous last night, but I enjoyed seeing the Cougars win despite the laughable commentary by the Weber State radio team. I am definitely enjoying the ride.

Glad you're enjoying the ride. As am I. Is "enjoying the ride" the new excuse for not understanding basketball all that well, though?



This is a sports forum, people are going to share their opinions/insights/support/frustrations regarding the team.



If you don't have any better retort than "well I'M enjoying the ride," just don't even bother. At least Craig usually backs up his opinions with logic - I doubt his feelings are hurt when I disagree with him on something, and I doubt he demands an apology.

Italics wrote:

craigoscarson:



With very few exceptions, your posts are very well thought out, and I appreciate your insight. My opinion is that no-one should ever make accusations without being able to back them up. "I'm not going to dig through your posts" is a cop-out, and italics owes you an apology.



I might have been a little nervous last night, but I enjoyed seeing the Cougars win despite the laughable commentary by the Weber State radio team. I am definitely enjoying the ride.

Glad you're enjoying the ride. As am I. Is "enjoying the ride" the new excuse for not understanding basketball all that well, though?



This is a sports forum, people are going to share their opinions/insights/support/frustrations regarding the team.



If you don't have any better retort than "well I'M enjoying the ride," just don't even bother. At least Craig usually backs up his opinions with logic - I doubt his feelings are hurt when I disagree with him on something, and I doubt he demands an apology.

The reason you owe him an apology is because you made a baseless accusation, and YOU weren't willing to back it up: "I'm not going to dig through your posts". Don't make claims about something that you can't back up.

Italics wrote:

craigoscarson:



With very few exceptions, your posts are very well thought out, and I appreciate your insight. My opinion is that no-one should ever make accusations without being able to back them up. "I'm not going to dig through your posts" is a cop-out, and italics owes you an apology.



I might have been a little nervous last night, but I enjoyed seeing the Cougars win despite the laughable commentary by the Weber State radio team. I am definitely enjoying the ride.

Glad you're enjoying the ride. As am I. Is "enjoying the ride" the new excuse for not understanding basketball all that well, though?



This is a sports forum, people are going to share their opinions/insights/support/frustrations regarding the team.



If you don't have any better retort than "well I'M enjoying the ride," just don't even bother. At least Craig usually backs up his opinions with logic - I doubt his feelings are hurt when I disagree with him on something, and I doubt he demands an apology.

You're right, my feelings aren't hurt. I have very thick skin and the internet is a place where you need it because not everyone thinks before they write, or do they care to make a post or argument worth posting.



There are times I agonize over posts, or even delete them after I've proofread my post because 1. I'll rethink my point and see it as baseless 2. I'll see my post as something that brings nothing to the thread 3. Or I'll even put my post on hold until I can do more homework on it. Not because I care what others think, but because I care about what I think and that my info and argument is sound. Sometimes, I'm still wrong, we all are at times; and when I am, I'll take my lumps.



What I cannot and do not tolerate are people that argue for arguments sake or partially or completely dismiss the truth to make an argument. I personally think they look worse when they do that. It's been Mars m.o. for years and when things get heated and italics, you have a tendency to do that; which is what happened in this case. You created an argument out of nothing, and specifically called me out for something that never happened. No one knows my posts better than I do, and I knew from the second I read your post that it was a baseless blatant lie. (read above if you can't remember when I posted the donation post... you dont' even have to read hard as it was before the season ever started and had nothing to do with performance or the 2 qb system, which I was veritably silent about.)



People are entitled to their opinion and on a forum like this people are entitled to post their opinion. If they disagree, big deal; do your best to persuade them to why you think they way you do, but at the end of the day, inventing or completely twisting someones words to deflect criticism of your argument is low class. I've been blessed (or cursed) with an off the charts good memory. It's served me well at times (particularly on exams, clinical settings, and trivial pursuit- though my relatives refuse to play it with me now) and other times , I use it too often in ways that look like, "I told you so." My wife hates it when i'll bring up something from years back that we talked about and she knows I remember word for word the conversation, but she neither remembers the discussion nor cares. I assure you, that I remember my posts on this forum and my posts on cb; in fact I remember many of my posts on cougar-net when i was no more than a snot-nose 20 something like you. (and yes I was a lot more outspoken then too, so I understand) ;)



Italics, I'm glad you have passion for BYU sports, I really am. We need more fans that are willing to scream, yell, pound the seats, and show up for games. But, even though some of us are lawyers on this forum (I'm not but I have an Ivy League educated one in my family so I know the drill) arguments on this forum are not life or death, win or lose. There are people that would deliberately take a point or idea that they don't believe in just to argue the other side (like my brother) but I don't really see that as the point here. I see this forum as a way to celebrate and get informed on everything BYU... and yes there will be times to rant and get upset about what happens on the field of play... but we need to keep a perspective. This is a golden age of BYU sports that we haven't seen since the 80s and if we dont' celebrate that, then I think we just come off as unrealistic and unappreciative pricks.



There are times to do something or say something unpopular (I thought so when others suggested we leave the mwc in spite of palatable tv concessions, in which i said that not only is that a bad idea, but I would consider stopping donation to BYU if they did something like that..) But the key words there are important too; "in spite" "palatable" "concessions" that's what was important and some read it and got it and others didn't and thought they could use that post as future ammo on a completely unrelated thread.... which is where we are now...



If the key words from this thread are "we aren't as good as we could be" "we still have issues with consistency" "we might not be as good as our record" then I think not only do the vast majority agree, but they're concerned too. However, the delivery of that message comes off as "we're not very good" "we have nothing to celebrate" and "if you disagree with me, you don't know anything about collge hoops."



I can assure you that is as far from the truth as can be and there are guys that frequent this forum that have years and years of college basktball experience. There are guys that have officiated college hoops on this forum, guys that have worked in a D1 college program (like me), and even guys that have played college hoops on this forum (I know Jeremiah Hartsock -brother of Noah and a college player himself) lurks and I know that Greg Rose -brother of Mike) lurk because they talk to me about posts here.)



I'd say the vast majority of people that frequent this forum do so for information about the team they love and care about. Most steer clear of the angry, "we suck" threads because they don't help BYU and they rarely, if ever, offer a solution to the problem. This would be one of those threads, and I think that those like iowacougar are saying a lot less than they're thinking when they simply say, "I'm enjoying the ride."



If you spend too much time complaining you might miss it too. We're not getting Jimmer or Jax back after this year; once in a while we need to celebrate them while we have them.

Well considering that Brandon Davies continues to improve and deliver and Noah Hartsock contributes significantly - maybe criticism of our bigs will be less. Don't get me wrong - no Lew Alcindors in the mix - not final four or elite 8. But maybe this is a sweet 16 team if the Collinsworth brothers improve free throw shooting, three-point shooting, and outside shooting.



This team is fun to watch and a nice ride - although they were definitely off and looking vulnerable when I saw them in Anaheim. They worried me at times tonight - but we won. I count every win - good, bad, or ugly.



I love the coaches and every player on this team. I think this team matches or exceeds last year's team.



Go Cougs