Archived Topic

Refs swallowed their whistles when Jimmer had the ball

by IowaCougar · 2/10/2011

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Brayden Green
snoscythe wrote:
No matter why the refs are doing it, Jimmer needs to recognize how the refs are calling the game. If they aren't going to give him those calls, he needs to look to score/contribute in other ways.



I was kind of bugged last night at the game because the whole game Jimmer was complaining to the refs about non-calls, even a possession or two after the no-call. It made him look whiny. When you don't get that call three times in a row, you need to change what you are doing, cuz the refs aren't going to change what they are doing.


agreed. If the refs are letting them play physical against you, stop taking elbows and start lowering shoulders. He is going to encounter much more physical play than Air Force in the NBA. Might as well learn to do it now.
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BYULV
BlueIsBetter wrote:
No matter why the refs are doing it, Jimmer needs to recognize how the refs are calling the game. If they aren't going to give him those calls, he needs to look to score/contribute in other ways.



I was kind of bugged last night at the game because the whole game Jimmer was complaining to the refs about non-calls, even a possession or two after the no-call. It made him look whiny. When you don't get that call three times in a row, you need to change what you are doing, cuz the refs aren't going to change what they are doing.


agreed. If the refs are letting them play physical against you, stop taking elbows and start lowering shoulders. He is going to encounter much more physical play than Air Force in the NBA. Might as well learn to do it now.


Only problem with lowering the shoulder is that the refs would no doubt blow the whistle on Jimmer without a second thought. I have to agree that the refs seem to be overcompensating for the Jimmer factor. I don't like his complaining either, but it's got to get frustrating after awhile playing under two different standards, one on offense and the other on defense.



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Brayden Green
BYULV wrote:
snoscythe wrote:
No matter why the refs are doing it, Jimmer needs to recognize how the refs are calling the game. If they aren't going to give him those calls, he needs to look to score/contribute in other ways.



I was kind of bugged last night at the game because the whole game Jimmer was complaining to the refs about non-calls, even a possession or two after the no-call. It made him look whiny. When you don't get that call three times in a row, you need to change what you are doing, cuz the refs aren't going to change what they are doing.


agreed. If the refs are letting them play physical against you, stop taking elbows and start lowering shoulders. He is going to encounter much more physical play than Air Force in the NBA. Might as well learn to do it now.


Only problem with lowering the shoulder is that the refs would no doubt blow the whistle on Jimmer without a second thought. I have to agree that the refs seem to be overcompensating for the Jimmer factor. I don't like his complaining either, but it's got to get frustrating after awhile playing under two different standards, one on offense and the other on defense.



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yeah, bu you don't know that. And maybe if they call one against you, they will start calling falls for you too.
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SenorCougar
The Hairman isn't going to let BYU go easy. It always makes you wonder if he wants the Cougs to fail miserably. Makes you concerned for the MWC tourney....
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Brayden Green
SenorCougar wrote:
The Hairman isn't going to let BYU go easy. It always makes you wonder if he wants the Cougs to fail miserably. Makes you concerned for the MWC tourney....




Yeah, but - win or lose - we still are dancing this year (barring of course the meltdown of the century losing like 5 more til then...)



It just depends on the seeding we get. We win the tourney, and win out from here, I am really convinced we get a 2 seed. And depending on who loses in front of us, we might work our way up to a 1 (not likely, but possible) or at least solidify our chances at getting a 2.



Getting a 2 seed would be unbelievable for our program. It almost guarantees that we go past 2 rounds into the tourney before we even get challenged. Even a 3 seed would be better than we have ever seen, and I expect we get a 3 seed or 4 at worst even if we don't win the tourney (assuming that is our only loss).



Things are looking great for us, we just gotta stay healthy and keep on keepin on.
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SpiffCoug
So I crunched some numbers (shocking I know) about Jimmer and free throws from last year and this year.



Here's what I came up with:

Last year Jimmer took 491 FGs, this year he's taken 490. Yet last year he took 251 FTs, this year he's taken 185.



Last year he was taking 7.4 FTA per game, this year it's 7.1.



Some have argued that it's because of all the three's he's taken. Jimmer has taken more threes than last year, 15.4% more. So a 15.4% increase in threes equals a 26.3% drop in FTAs?



Jimmer is just taking more shots. He's shooting 17.4% more shots per 40 minutes, including 15.3% more 2-point shots per 40 minutes. His threes are up 35.8% per 40 minutes and yet his FTAs are down 15.3% per 40minutes.



Why has everything going up except his FTAs? Last year Jimmer shot one free throw for every 1.3 two-point FGA. This year it's one free throw for every 1.6 two-point FGA.



It's a joke that Jimmer isn't getting to the line.
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BOID
BlueIsBetter wrote:
No matter why the refs are doing it, Jimmer needs to recognize how the refs are calling the game. If they aren't going to give him those calls, he needs to look to score/contribute in other ways.



I was kind of bugged last night at the game because the whole game Jimmer was complaining to the refs about non-calls, even a possession or two after the no-call. It made him look whiny. When you don't get that call three times in a row, you need to change what you are doing, cuz the refs aren't going to change what they are doing.


agreed. If the refs are letting them play physical against you, stop taking elbows and start lowering shoulders. He is going to encounter much more physical play than Air Force in the NBA. Might as well learn to do it now.


I apologize in advance for this tirade on a perhaps tired topic, but the intrepid are invited to read on. :evil:



Jimmer is more than capable of playing in a rough, contact-heavy contest. Indeed, he has done it in games at prisons and in some Eastern league where no fouls are called, or so I have heard. He supposedly participated in those activities with his father and older brother. So I wouldn't say that Jimmer needs to toughen up. I think he is justified in being frustrated that his defenders are allowed more freedom to bump, grab, and throw a knee into him, than his own team is allowed when BYU is playing defense. This has not just been imagined, but is a true and increasing double standard. If these MWC officials do not like the number of scoring attempts (or-- opportunities to draw foul calls, if you will), then that is simply too bad for them, and the damn MWC. It is not their right to exert double standards and leave the league's MVP unprotected. It is not their right to try to force Jimmer to learn to score in different ways, simply because league opponents do not have the knack, or the confidence, or the WILL to play like Jimmer does. It is not Jimmer's, or BYU's responsibility to see that other players make the same volume of FGA per game, or the same number of inside drive attempts per game as Jimmer does, or to slow down Jimmer's play, just to provide the conference's desired "competitive balance." What is this anyway, some kind of Scoring-Opportunity-Marxism? I believe that if a treasure like Fredette were playing at UNLV, or at SDSU, that our illustrious conference would be trying to protect him for the value and recognition that he brings the league. Instead, he is at BYU and they are punishing him. :angry: To cap this paragraph, the fact that Jimmer has put up some prayer shots when effectively covered, in no way invalidates the argument above, and is not what I am talking about. :roll:



At any rate, I am sure that Jimmer would have no problem with a system that officiates all players the same way, even if it meant a bruising free-for-all slug-fest. BYU knows from experience that they will not be officiated leniently, or equitably in this pathetic league, and so they have coached a more gentlemanly style, in which they leap straight up to block, get set early to take a charge, and employ only light touch to keep track of a ball carrier's movements. Cougars are not coached to grab, shove, trip, chop, and body check with injurious force. Other teams do prepare this way for BYU, and they boast about it afterwards: "we were determined to make him feel it every time he tried to cut in." The last quote was from an AF forward (sorry, I don't have the name, but that is what he said, even though AF's coached claimed when asked that they did not prepare any differently for Jimmer than they did for any other player). By the way, did you all take note of the no-call when an AF defender cut into Jimmer just after he had given his assigned defender the slip on a cross-over to the left lane. The thrown knee was brutal and both players went down in blood and glory, and amazingly, with no call at all. They knew that they could not construe a charge against Jimmer, but a no call? :sulk: Wyoming and Utah players have made similar post-game comments, and you all can remember Coach Boylen making pre-emptive claims after the last game that JImmer deserves it because of his so called physical play, and "he is so hard to officiate." I know that Araujo used to make cheap shots in retaliation for the same, but I think we can all agree that he was an exception, and that he was not coached to do that.



Any way, I do not agree with the suggestion that Jimmer needs to toughen up and stop whining. He is a national star now, and he should have some clout to call refs out for their outrageous double standards, just like Ty Detmer did in football when he was with us. The MWC is not only trying to pretend that Jimmer's star status does not exist, but they are acting as though they believe that they can make his stardom go away. And we all know that that is what the conference wants. Indeed, they must feel some protection of cover in this officiating scandal, due to the very same television non-coverage that they bumbled into, and which has induced BYU's separation. In the words of Elmer Fudd: Good widdance to bad wubbish!!!!!!!!! :crazy:



There now. I feel a little bit better for having vented.



GO COUGS!!! GO JIMMER!!! ;)
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BYULV
+1 boid



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Brayden Green
I hope you don't feel like I was suggesting that Jimmer shut up, or quit whining.



I was merely saying, take what they give you. If they are letting them play more physical against you, then street ball it up... If they are calling it unfairly one way or the other, and you are both playing the same type of intensity/physicality, then it is on the coaching staff to call out the officials.
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BOID
BlueIsBetter wrote:
I hope you don't feel like I was suggesting that Jimmer shut up, or quit whining.



I was merely saying, take what they give you. If they are letting them play more physical against you, then street ball it up... If they are calling it unfairly one way or the other, and you are both playing the same type of intensity/physicality, then it is on the coaching staff to call out the officials.


No worries, Blue. What you've said here is a good point and I agree with it.



I do believe, however, that these MWC officials will not call it evenly, and that attempts to ramp up the contact by BYU would result in the early loss from the game, of our starting players. I don't think they would have any remorse at all in calling the 5th foul on Davies, Emery, Hartsock, or Fredette, and that our bench would be left to defend the starting five from MWC rivals. Our coaching staff could protest loudly, get T's called, and even get ejected. Complaints filed later would not result in a rematch, neither in a decision to vacate a win by our opponent. Once we were to suffer two more conference losses, with SDSU taking the conference championship, and Jimmer dropping from contention for POY, then perhaps they would be happy to call it fair again.



What's to be done? I'm not sure. Perhaps it would do to throw up some pre-emptive resistence to the conference's scheme by encouraging fans, sports writers, other programs' coaches, sports media outlets, to talk openly about it. Everyone should call a spade a spade, and put some pressure on the MWC to behave better, and possibly even the NCAA to say something. The usual response to this kind of complaint is: "don't be a cry-baby." So it would not work if it is only a few individuals, and maybe would not work at all anyway. Dick Harmon has made a moderate stab at the issue in at least one article, saying that Jimmer pressed the issue, and MWC officials refused to treat him like a super star, allowing contact to go uncalled. That is not an exact quote, but it represents the real content of his statement. Gotta love DH. If the season does go down the way the conference would like, then the least we can do as fans is remain in solidarity in our beliefs and declarations that the MWC is corrupt, and that we were robbed.



One thing for sure, is that the pressure for BYU to cough up an upset in conference is going to get worse, not better. The gauntlet will get worse if the conference is not made to feel some shame. Can that really be done? I don't know, but the drama is going to be very interesting for these last five games, because the MWC really wants to spank us on the way out. Oh, well. What will be will be. At least we know that we have a team of fierce competitors, who will not back down, or let up until they have finished their season, and tourneys for both conference and NCAA.



GO COUGS!!!!!!!!!
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SpiffCoug
I think we've all complained enough about Jimmer not getting enough calls. Now, let's move on to solutions. Here are some of mine:



- Jimmer can stay in control more. Too many times the last few games he's gotten into the lane and lost control of the ball - granted much of that is because of all the hacking that is going on. But if Jimmer can improve in this area, then it may help the refs call fouls.



- Jimmer can keep his feet better. By this I don't mean not hitting the ground when he's hit/fouled. I mean that he's been penetrating to deep, jumping, realizing he's go nowhere to go and then either forcing an awkward pass to a teammate or turning it over. This goes back to staying in control.



- Jimmer can really make sure there is plenty of contact. Really get into the opponents. Make sure there's no doubt there was a lot of contact.



- Jimmer should continue doing what he's doing. Force the issue. Keep on keeping on.
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Gunk
kitic77 wrote:
I think we've all complained enough about Jimmer not getting enough calls. Now, let's move on to solutions. Here are some of mine:



- Jimmer can stay in control more. Too many times the last few games he's gotten into the lane and lost control of the ball - granted much of that is because of all the hacking that is going on. But if Jimmer can improve in this area, then it may help the refs call fouls.



- Jimmer can keep his feet better. By this I don't mean not hitting the ground when he's hit/fouled. I mean that he's been penetrating to deep, jumping, realizing he's go nowhere to go and then either forcing an awkward pass to a teammate or turning it over. This goes back to staying in control.



- Jimmer can really make sure there is plenty of contact. Really get into the opponents. Make sure there's no doubt there was a lot of contact.



- Jimmer should continue doing what he's doing. Force the issue. Keep on keeping on.


This is something Jimmer has been needing to improve on all season: recognizing when the double team is coming before it gets to him. Too many times he lets the double come to him and then tries to split it, draw contact or shoot it. Passing too often is the 4th option. And lately, he's been finding himself with no foul call and up in the air frantically looking to pass. By then, it's too late.



Jimmer knows the double is coming. He knows the contact is coming. He knows he isn't going to get the call. Time to give it up more, before the double is in his face. As soon as the help defense starts there way over, pass it.
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CougarPeasant
We have a separate thread for Harmon's article on Jimmer and the fouls. I thought about starting another thread for Dickson's article at the Herald, but decided to just tack it on to this thread.



http://www.heraldextra.com/sports/college/byu/basketball/article_b21f35b4-3893-11e0-89b2-001cc4c03286.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Dickson seems to be arguing that the numbers don't support that Jimmer is getting plenty of fouls called when he's on offense.



Unfortunately, Dickson's own research actually supports the opposite. We've seen numbers showing that Jimmer's been to the line 24% fewer times this season than last. Further, Jimmer is a point guard who drives to the basket than most other players. Therefore, Jimmer actually should be near the top of the conference for fouls per shot. Instead, Jimmer is like 17th in the MWC, an abysmal ranking given how much he shoots in the key.



I know this isn't the greatest rebuttal to Dickson's work, but it was such a shoddy piece of reporting and he tries so hard to be the anti-BYU homer, that he only deserves a cursory review.





On another note, it's unfortunate that BYU has zero leverage over the MWC since they are leaving after this season. Otherwise, I am sure this wouldn't be quite the problem it is this season.



ed. note: I read this article yesterday or one like it and could have sworn it was by Dickson. I looked it over again and noticed the author is actually (or is now) Franchuk. My rant stays the same.
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Guest
Agreed CP. It's articles like this that highlight the differences between Harmon and Dickson. (and it isn't a positive difference for Dickson).
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SpiffCoug
The problem is that if you look at the raw numbers, Jimmer is getting to the line way more than anyone else in conference. But if you look deeper (FTs per shot, etc) you can see that he's not getting there as often as the numbers seem to suggest.
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BOID
kitic77 wrote:
I think we've all complained enough about Jimmer not getting enough calls. Now, let's move on to solutions. Here are some of mine:



- Jimmer can stay in control more. Too many times the last few games he's gotten into the lane and lost control of the ball - granted much of that is because of all the hacking that is going on. But if Jimmer can improve in this area, then it may help the refs call fouls.



- Jimmer can keep his feet better. By this I don't mean not hitting the ground when he's hit/fouled. I mean that he's been penetrating to deep, jumping, realizing he's go nowhere to go and then either forcing an awkward pass to a teammate or turning it over. This goes back to staying in control.



- Jimmer can really make sure there is plenty of contact. Really get into the opponents. Make sure there's no doubt there was a lot of contact.



- Jimmer should continue doing what he's doing. Force the issue. Keep on keeping on.


Good points. Part of the magic of Jimmer's drives has been total committment. Once he's halfway down the lane, then it's do or die. He either gets airborn, with likely collisions, or trapped into a collision with feet on the court as defenders collapse on him. He either gets an opportunity to scoop or hook while he's in the scoring zone, or he crashes back to earth in a mugging. Sometimes, there is simply a thicket of long arms in the way, but no foul. But most of the time, there is a foul. He has great body control, including balance, in those situations. When he slashes, he knows how to get his shoulders and hips just past a defender, so they cannot stop him without grabbing or hacking him. The defender is necessarily moving, so there is no offensive foul for that contact. He does his thing very quickly, so that it is difficult for a help-defender to jump in his path and get set (note the bogus offensive foul called on Jimmer against Utah). But I agree--he should keep doing his thing, and make it as obvious as possible.



It would be nice to have some one videograph Jimmer exclusively during games, as well as collect footage of some of the more blatant non-call fouls done to him in previous games, put it together and try to get it to go viral on the internet, via Youtube, etc. I am not in the States, and not set up to do it, but it could be great. It would be fun to see the nation rooting for Jimmer at the same time that they are rooting against the MWC, for the remainder of the season games. I don't know; just an idea.
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