Another ho hum 26 win season - biggest comeback ever

ABYUFAN wrote:

I agree Bib. I was ready to place blame for this very, very near miss on Coach. Come up with a freaking scheme to counter the trap defense, Coach. We love ya, but c'mon, you almost gave this game away. You gotta do better than that. Coach lucks out with a very tough shot by Matt and some misses by USF. Otherwise methinks cougar nation unleashes some anger on Coach if we lose.



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FWIW I disagree, they weren't bad shots, the time of the shot was bad, but they had been going down earlier. Rose's system is that you don't pass up open shots, we live by that sword and die by it. We lived by it tonight, we can't get all bothered and pretend that we actually died by it.

Seems like a very narrow strategy. Late in a game, with an 8 point lead, yeah - don't go into a deep freeze, and if a fast break pass for a layup is there like Abuou got after the bad shots - take it every time.



And in a pinch, when down 1 force a drive and try to create a shot if that is your role - like Carlino at the end of the game or Noah the previous possession.



But when Abuou, clumsy as he is when he forces things, drives early in the shot clock to create a shot he invariably turns it over due to traveling, charging, or losing the handle or takes and misses an awkward shot. That is not "not passing up an open shot".



That is selfish play by a player unaware of his own tendencies or limitations. I do not expect that from a senior.



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Charles was 3-4 shooting threes until his final two attempts late. I had no problem with him shooting. He was shooting the ball well last night. They were open looks. They may have been early, but they were open.

SpiffCoug wrote:
Charles was 3-4 shooting threes until his final two attempts late. I had no problem with him shooting. He was shooting the ball well last night. They were open looks. They may have been early, but they were open.

Early was the issue on the outside shots - clock management. Early and reckless was the issue on the early, clumsy, forced drive to the basket. That is not his strength.It is a weakness often followed by a reactionary foul after he turns it over. Out of control.



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SpiffCoug wrote:
Charles was 3-4 shooting threes until his final two attempts late. I had no problem with him shooting. He was shooting the ball well last night. They were open looks. They may have been early, but they were open.

We need an aggressive Abouo. Does he occasionally force things, yes, as does Davies, Noah, and Carlino.



Rose has to be careful with Abouo as he can't have Abouo playing timid. I think we can all agree we need an active, hungry Abouo not one that second guesses himself.



Preference would be for an aggressive, heads-up Abouo, but we should take what we can get.



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Great 2nd half after an unfocused 1st half. Lots of upsets this week. Luckily, we were not one of them.



Now we can look ahead to the Zags. Up next. Thursday. On he Road again.



I really hope Noah and Matt are 100%. How many banged up knees is that now?



Makes me appreciate the guys on the bench and makes me hope we have enough of them next time Noad is laying almost motionless on the floor in obvious agony and Davies has 4 fouls and Austin is picking up fouls and Carlino is gimpy and mostly on the bench.



They stepped up tonight.



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How many wins is it going to take before you stop thinking of this as a "ho-hum" season? Because right now you're the only one calling it a ho-hum season, Bib. I feel like it's pretty disingenuous to keep changing the topic title, so I'm just curious at what # of wins will you officially stop thinking of this year as ho-hum?

hawkwing wrote:
How many wins is it going to take before you stop thinking of this as a "ho-hum" season? Because right now you're the only one calling it a ho-hum season, Bib. I feel like it's pretty disingenuous to keep changing the topic title, so I'm just curious at what # of wins will you officially stop thinking of this year as ho-hum?

Are you really that thick. I didn't think it was a ho hum season back when we had 19 wins and everyone was bemoaning our fate. This team has exceeded any realistic expectation an objective party would have had before the season began.



Go back and look at posts three weeks ago or any time this season, and you will note that I am the one fan that has never been down on this team and have been the one that appreciates every player on this young, rebuilding team.



This was a TIC thread from the beginning.



If you ever fix this site to work with iPad and iPhone, I will click on the Wink icon to make it more obvious.



Go Cougs



Ho Hum. TIC, TIC, TIC and yes, I intended to prick posters that were so disappointed in this team for losing twice to SMC.



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hawkwing wrote:
How many wins is it going to take before you stop thinking of this as a "ho-hum" season? Because right now you're the only one calling it a ho-hum season, Bib. I feel like it's pretty disingenuous to keep changing the topic title, so I'm just curious at what # of wins will you officially stop thinking of this year as ho-hum?

I never got the impression that he meant "ho-hum" I think what he was saying is that we dont' appreciate how good Coach Rose and this team is and has been. The fact that we're one of only 2 teams that has a legit chance at 5 25 win seasons in a row (if I remember, it's Kansas then maybe maybe Butler is a long shot) is a testament to how good this staff has been at recruiting, coaching, and even how good our fans are.



I have seen people bag on Hartsock and Abouo for the last few years now but there's a chance that they pass Jimmer for the winningest players in the HISTORY of BYU hoops, with Charles being #1. They didn't just ride the coat-tails of others, they earned this. We will have a very hard time replacing both of them next year, particularly on the defensive end.



We're flat out spoiled. (and Coach Rose and crew are hardly done with their best recruits still on the horizon and a ton of freshmen getting important minutes now)



HOWEVER; #1 This team did not exceed my expectations. I fully expected them to win 20+ and compete for the conference regular season; I knew what Hartsock and Abouo were capable of and the only real surprise to me was how good Nate Austin would be this early in his career.



#2 Coach Rose won crucial games of the season using Anson Winder as a perimeter defender and lost his biggest games of the season relying too much on Brock Zylstra and Craig Cusick. At the time that we lost those two games, I had not seen much evidence to believe that Coach Rose and staff saw the value in starting Winder. I bemoan that because I feel like the results would have been much different if Winder and Harrison had been utilized more against SMC and LMU at home. You can't win if you can't get stops. With those two wins under our belts, we're shoo-ins for the NCAA tourney and realistically 7-8 seeds versus the 11-12 that we're projected to get should we not falter.



To Coach Roses credit, he realized that Zylstra is overmatched as a starter at the 2 against top tier teams, and he realized it before it was too late. I'll bemoan the fact that he didn't figure it out sooner; and I'd be bemoaning it right now if Zylstra was still starting and we had lost 2-3 more games since LMU (which we might possibly have).



Both Coach Rose and Coach Mendenhall have shown the propensity to favor more mature RMs, but to their fault it doesn't always work out and to their credit, they usually seem to figure it out.



In spite of that fact, I pinch myself because we're so lucky to have football teams that win bowl games and finish with double digit wins (this was a rare event in the late 80s and 90s) and hoops teams that win 25+ and actually win games in the NCAA tourney. (our tourney drought was painful).. nothing ho-hum about either of our sports teams, particularly when you consider the honor-code and its effect on winning and recruiting, Mormon hatred by voters, coaches, umps and refs... and what dishonorable means that other schools and coaches will often resort to, to win.

craigoscarson wrote:



#2 Coach Rose won crucial games of the season using Anson Winder as a perimeter defender and lost his biggest games of the season relying too much on Brock Zylstra and Craig Cusick. At the time that we lost those two games, I had not seen much evidence to believe that Coach Rose and staff saw the value in starting Winder. I bemoan that because I feel like the results would have been much different if Winder and Harrison had been utilized more against SMC and LMU at home. You can't win if you can't get stops. With those two wins under our belts, we're shoo-ins for the NCAA tourney and realistically 7-8 seeds versus the 11-12 that we're projected to get should we not falter.

I expect BYU to go dancing every year. Rose is that good of a coach and with the talent we have on our team there should be no reason why we don't compete in the NCAA Tourney every year.



If only Rose had gone with Winder a bit earlier in the season. At the beginning of the season when Davies, Abouo, Winder, Harrison and Noah were all on the floor at the same time the speed on defense was awesome. All that was needed was a legit PG, which we have now.



I like Zylstra. He hussles. He plays hard and is great in transition. He gets beats on defense and becomes irrelevant against superior teams. Although I try not to think about it, but I'm keen to believe had Winder been in the rotation a bit more we would have another 2 wins under our belt.



At least Rose has realized it now and I sincerely hope he doesn't go back to Zylstra in the starting lineup, even when/if Rogers comes back.

craigoscarson wrote:
I never got the impression that he meant "ho-hum" I think what he was saying is that we dont' appreciate how good Coach Rose and this team is and has been. The fact that we're one of only 2 teams that has a legit chance at 5 25 win seasons in a row (if I remember, it's Kansas then maybe maybe Butler is a long shot) is a testament to how good this staff has been at recruiting, coaching, and even how good our fans are.



I have seen people bag on Hartsock and Abouo for the last few years now but there's a chance that they pass Jimmer for the winningest players in the HISTORY of BYU hoops, with Charles being #1. They didn't just ride the coat-tails of others, they earned this. We will have a very hard time replacing both of them next year, particularly on the defensive end.



We're flat out spoiled. (and Coach Rose and crew are hardly done with their best recruits still on the horizon and a ton of freshmen getting important minutes now)



HOWEVER; #1 This team did not exceed my expectations. I fully expected them to win 20+ and compete for the conference regular season; I knew what Hartsock and Abouo were capable of and the only real surprise to me was how good Nate Austin would be this early in his career.



#2 Coach Rose won crucial games of the season using Anson Winder as a perimeter defender and lost his biggest games of the season relying too much on Brock Zylstra and Craig Cusick. At the time that we lost those two games, I had not seen much evidence to believe that Coach Rose and staff saw the value in starting Winder. I bemoan that because I feel like the results would have been much different if Winder and Harrison had been utilized more against SMC and LMU at home. You can't win if you can't get stops. With those two wins under our belts, we're shoo-ins for the NCAA tourney and realistically 7-8 seeds versus the 11-12 that we're projected to get should we not falter.



To Coach Roses credit, he realized that Zylstra is overmatched as a starter at the 2 against top tier teams, and he realized it before it was too late. I'll bemoan the fact that he didn't figure it out sooner; and I'd be bemoaning it right now if Zylstra was still starting and we had lost 2-3 more games since LMU (which we might possibly have).



Both Coach Rose and Coach Mendenhall have shown the propensity to favor more mature RMs, but to their fault it doesn't always work out and to their credit, they usually seem to figure it out.



In spite of that fact, I pinch myself because we're so lucky to have football teams that win bowl games and finish with double digit wins (this was a rare event in the late 80s and 90s) and hoops teams that win 25+ and actually win games in the NCAA tourney. (our tourney drought was painful).. nothing ho-hum about either of our sports teams, particularly when you consider the honor-code and its effect on winning and recruiting, Mormon hatred by voters, coaches, umps and refs... and what dishonorable means that other schools and coaches will often resort to, to win.

GREAT post. Sums up exactly how I feel.

Even with Hartsock joining Collinsworth and Rodgers on the disabled list and our backup Big, Austin, spraining an ankle early and getting into foul trouble, and Carlino needing to visit the locker room briefly in the 2nd half, and with Cusick hitting the deck hard and Abouo firing air balls, this scrappy bunch of inexperienced players put away Portland and closed out the regular season with 24 wins.



Did they meet, exceed, or fall short of your expectations thus far. They have exceeded mine and it has been a fun team to watch albeit frustrating at times. The frustration for me is that early on, Zylstra, Cusick, Martineau, Winder, Harrison, Rodgers, Abouo, and Austin exceeded my expectations so much at times, that it was frustrating when they dropped off from their peaks. They each peaked at different times, and left me wondering what might be If they ever all clicked at once.



I expected almost nothing out of the first five listed above. Sometimes we got very little but at other times all but Martineau flashed. Noah and Davies were about as expected. Abouo was close. I did not know what to expect from Carlino. He was inconsistent, but flashed brighter than I expected at times.



Having said all of that, I expected a 3rd place finish just like the experts predicted. So that would indicate "meeting expectations". But LMU and USF surprised me and made a tougher challenge than I expected. If I had known how good they would be and how they would end up causing problems at the top, I would have expected BYU to end up 4th or 5th.



And BYU did this without Rodgers, CC, and now Hartsock. Had I expected that kind of injury hit - I would have definitely predicted 4th or 5th.



Bottom line - since I expected so little, Cusick, Zylstra, Winder, Austin, and Harrison gave way more than I expected and Davies, Hartsock, Abouo, and Carlino gave at least as much as expected. Due to injury, CC and Rodgers disappointed.



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Sounds like it is time to do season grades on everyone.

scott715 wrote:
Sounds like it is time to do season grades on everyone.

It would be interesting to see them graded two ways



Way 1 - grade vs expectations of an experienced D1 player at their position.



Way 2 - grade vs what would realistically be expected of them this year with their given experience level and talent level.



Maybe even Way 3 - grade vs what a typical D1 talented player with that number of years of experience should do.



Any way - any grading exercise should clearly spell out what the grade is to be based on.



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How about grading them on how they actually performed (the first grade)? The other three ways suggested follow my reasoning for my grade, but with no explanation.

Starters:

Hartsock: A - not sure how it could be anything less. He was, at worst, one of the three best players in the WCC. IMO, the other two would be Dellavedova and Davies. A, A, A

Davies: B+ - he started out really slow but he was an absolute beast in conference play. He could be the best player in the WCC next year.B+, B+, B+

Abouo: B - disappeared for stretches of the season. Continued his out-of-control play and never seemed to find a rhythm.C+, B, B

Winder: B - played some good minutes early at the point when it was clear Brock wasn't the answer at the 1. Found his shot, then lost it completely and has found parts of it again. Solid perimeter defender who may have to assume the best perimeter defender role from Chuck next year.B, B+, B

Carlino: B+ - started out like a gang buster. Lost his shot completely, found it for one game and is beginning to find it again. Very good passer who, when he doesn't launch early shots, really runs the offense well.B+, A, A-



Bench:

Austin: B+ - no one knew what to expect, but he can hit shots from the outside and has the potential to be a great post defender. Rebounds pretty well, but is very foul prone (almost as bad as Araujo).B+, B+, B+

Zylstra: B - disappeared in EVERY big game. Was afraid to shoot in those games. Played very well against lesser teams. Needed to step up against the better teams like a captain and team leader should.B, B, C+

Cusick: B - faded late in the year. Was a solid backup PG who stepped up in several road conference games when Carlino was struggling either with his shot or foul trouble.B, B+, B

Harrison: C+ - tried to do too much. Didn't take full advantage of the opportunities he did get. C-, C-, B

Sharp: C- - not impressed. He plays hard, but doesn't play well. Maybe he'll become a factor, but right now he's just unfocused energy with no rhyme or rhythm to how he plays.C-, C, C-

Rogers: INC - played well early (first 10 games) then a complete non-factor due to injury after that.INC

Collinsworth: INC - played 12 minutes all year and never took a shot and grabbed all of one rebound (for a supposedly great rebounder).INC

Martineau: INC - just counting the days until he's no longer on the roster.INC

Bib, they've had 25 wins for a good ten minutes now and you still haven't updated the thread title. What's the hold up?











TIC

Jarhead wrote:
Bib, they've had 25 wins for a good ten minutes now and you still haven't updated the thread title. What's the hold up?











TIC

Irony of ironies. I went all the way back to page 5 looking for this thread - aparrently did not think of looking at the top of page 1 - almost made a new one. Note I scratched the + from the title as I don't want to take the Zags for granted.



My wife and my son blabbed and blabbed all through the game so I could not hear the announcers and could not concentrate - but still enjoyed this close game - which was a microcosm of our season - flashes of brilliance - inconsistency - injured players on the bench or limping on the court.



I am very proud of this BYU team.



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I was dashing to catch a last minute arranged red eye to Las Vegas, could not find the game on TV, could not get KSL Internet Radio to work on my PC because my kid has somehow disabled the sound - only tweets every 30 seconds - started to console myself that I was not missing much - and then BAM BAM BAM



Sounds like lots of players contributed once they put it on the backs of the two big guys.



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I was driving from L.A. to Provo tonight. I was trying to listen to the game on a very static ridden AM radio. I didn't work at all. My brother in Provo was txting me updates as I drove. Exciting!!!!!!!! Whoaaaa Nellieeee!!!

Ddawg wrote:
I was driving from L.A. to Provo tonight. I was trying to listen to the game on a very static ridden AM radio. I didn't work at all. My brother in Provo was txting me updates as I drove. Exciting!!!!!!!! Whoaaaa Nellieeee!!!

Did you see Cougarbib as you drove past Vegas?