Gay at BYU

TWW, the only issue I have with your statement is this concept that having gay thoughts is somehow a sin. I disagree. It is not a sin to be tempted--to have a twinge of desire or lust. To the extent the tendencies, desires, or thoughts represent temptation, there is no sin to the extent they are not acted upon. Now if we are talking about actively entertaining and conjuring up fantasy and amplifying temptation through positive action, then I agree with the thought sin (i.e. lusting after something in your heart). Otherwise, I think you have overstated things to a point where even gay tendencies are sins.

I feel the need to clarify my thoughts on this subject a little further. I am not gay but I have relatives who suffer from it (and they do suffer) and have been very close to gays at various points in my life. I have feelings for them and that is the reason for my extensive interest in the subject. I know log cabin republicans and have a respect for them because of their values outside of their sexuality and their commitment to those values in spite of the rejection that they deal with from all sides, including other gays. I know how difficult it is just to be single in the church. Such feelings of isolation can only be compounded to be young, single, gay, and at BYU.



I do not believe that temptation is a sin. Christ was tempted. I believe that His temptations were very real and that we can learn from His example. He rejected His temptations. He fasted for strength against those temptations. The adversary did not stop tempting Him simply because He rejected the temptations.



I have a great respect for anyone who remains active in the church while dealing with such challenges. I think that those who suffer from the temptations of homosexuality have much to offer in the church. Many of them deal with a heightened sensitivity which though not generally accepted as a manly trait may in fact have godly origins and have a purpose. This is often a point of conflict between fathers who want a prototypical manly son but have found that they have a son with sensitivities more generally associated with women. I think it is very possible that God has greater sensitivities than us all. Therefore I think that sensitivity should be valued rather than frowned on.



However, I see a catastrophic error when someone says, "I am gay." Our temptations do not define who we are. It is one thing to say I am hungry to describe a condition that is easily relieved but quite another to say, I am stupid, ugly, smart, fat or even alcoholic. When we do so we suggest that our creation is complete, that God has finished His work with us and we set ourselves up as dictators to God of what is and what will be. There is only one being who truly has the right to say, "I AM" for He is the only I AM and all the rest of us are I WILL BE.



I believe this is much more than semantics. It establishes our right and freedom to discover our destinies. The very thing the adversary seeks to steal away from us. When we say "I am" (fill in the blank) we run the risk of calling God a lier and dismissing His plan but perhaps most importantly, it is just not true. However, to say "I suffer from", or "I have" alcoholism or homosexuality or whatever is simply the beginning of facing it but it does not define us.



It saddens me when someone says, "that is just the way I am." Though I would not stop gays from meeting, I have real concerns about it because I would rather they got love and support from people who do not have the same affliction.

Huh? I am a Mormon, a dad, white, attracted to women and of average height = God is a liar?



"I am attracted to men" is better than "I am gay" how?

ABYUFAN wrote:
It's one thing to struggle with an issue, it is something else entirely to invite the world into your struggle. It is hard for me not to see these folks as people wanting some time in the spot light. I get it your temptations are different than mine, I'm not out on youtube trying to invite the world to be sympathetic into my plight, also we have great group meetings where a group of imperfect folk get together on a weekly basis to discuss the struggles of life, we call it Sacrament Meeting. It's great and gennerally one gets out of it what one puts into it



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If you think their temptation is merely different from yours, you don't get it. You don't. Your temptation,i.e., sexual desire, has a proper outlet. And I'm not just talking about within a marriage. As early as age 12, kids can properly channel that desire--through dancing, holding hands, having crushes, etc. If you are gay in the church, those things allowed, even encouraged, to the YM and YW are strictly forbidden to you, forever.



Which of your temptations compares to that?

For all those who think that the administration of BYU or even the First Presidency of the Church hasn't put some serious thought and prayer into this problem and possible solutions, please do rethink your thoughts.



As far as having gays meet together to discuss their situations is a terrible way to go about helping them, what evidence do those of you who oppose it have, other than personal opinion?



There are those who will say that it just makes common sense that those type of meetings are just plain stupid, but is common sense right all the time...or even most of the time?



I have ADHD, the hyperactive type, there are three different types, hyperactive, day dreamer, and hyperactive and day dreamer. Now, does common sense dictate that in order to calm me down and help me focus better, that taking speed in the morning would do both. No, common sense would state that doing that would do just the opposite. Does anybody here disagree to that?



Shoot, I have a friend who also has ADHD and about an hour before he goes to bed, he drinks a cup of coffee or takes half a caffeine tablet. It helps him go to sleep, otherwise, if he didn't, he would have trouble falling to sleep and then he wouldn't be have enough sleep when he wakes up in the morning to get ready for work.

Larrycoug wrote:

It's one thing to struggle with an issue, it is something else entirely to invite the world into your struggle. It is hard for me not to see these folks as people wanting some time in the spot light. I get it your temptations are different than mine, I'm not out on youtube trying to invite the world to be sympathetic into my plight, also we have great group meetings where a group of imperfect folk get together on a weekly basis to discuss the struggles of life, we call it Sacrament Meeting. It's great and gennerally one gets out of it what one puts into it



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If you think their temptation is merely different from yours, you don't get it. You don't. Your temptation,i.e., sexual desire, has a proper outlet. And I'm not just talking about within a marriage. As early as age 12, kids can properly channel that desire--through dancing, holding hands, having crushes, etc. If you are gay in the church, those things allowed, even encouraged, to the YM and YW are strictly forbidden to you, forever.



Which of your temptations compares to that?

Which is why meeting with others struggling with this temptation, constantly bringing it to the forefront of your mind and constantly dwelling on it and defining yourself by something you know to be immoral may not be the best idea.



If you know something is wrong, then constantly talking about that thing, and defining yourself by seems like a poor strategy to me to overcome it.





There may be better outlets. I don't know. I just know that dwelling in and on sin is not a way to avoid sin.



Agian, I'm very glad this wasn't a struggle/tempation given to me.

Larrycoug wrote:

It's one thing to struggle with an issue, it is something else entirely to invite the world into your struggle. It is hard for me not to see these folks as people wanting some time in the spot light. I get it your temptations are different than mine, I'm not out on youtube trying to invite the world to be sympathetic into my plight, also we have great group meetings where a group of imperfect folk get together on a weekly basis to discuss the struggles of life, we call it Sacrament Meeting. It's great and gennerally one gets out of it what one puts into it



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If you think their temptation is merely different from yours, you don't get it. You don't. Your temptation,i.e., sexual desire, has a proper outlet. And I'm not just talking about within a marriage. As early as age 12, kids can properly channel that desire--through dancing, holding hands, having crushes, etc. If you are gay in the church, those things allowed, even encouraged, to the YM and YW are strictly forbidden to you, forever.



Which of your temptations compares to that?

Apparently neither one of us “get it”… I wasn’t just talking of sexual sin, there are all sorts of addicting temptations out there ranging from drug additions to alcohol addictions, obsessive compulsive additions etc. There is no healthy outlet for an alcoholic, or someone addicted to painkillers. And acknowledging that Sex is a part of who we are, not who we are, you have to realize that there are plenty of heterosexual people who are addicted to heterosexual pornography that have every bit of temptation and problems that homosexual people feel, unfortunately, their “outlet” is not healthy, and I would have a hard time with them posting youtube videos about their struggles as well.

I believe that the very problem that some of these you tubers face is that they believe that their issues are so much greater than the issues of those around them, and by acting on these feelings, they are feeding into a self-destructive behavior... what they are doing is trying to get the world to feel for them, rather than trying to feel the Savior’s healing peace. What the folks watching their youtube videos can give them is rationalization, what the Savior can give them is peace and help. The peace they can receive is real, and it can come while they are in the world, but it cannot come from the world, which is where they are looking for it.

Larrycoug wrote:
Huh? I am a Mormon, a dad, white, attracted to women and of average height = God is a liar?



"I am attracted to men" is better than "I am gay" how?

I think this has more to do with common usage and getting used to saying it a certain way than it does the actual intended meaning. I am not a language expert and we might pull in someone that served in a non-english speaking mission. In other languages the phrase "I am" hungry or whatever, would would not compute. Instead they would say, I have...

urroner wrote:
For all those who think that the administration of BYU or even the First Presidency of the Church hasn't put some serious thought and prayer into this problem and possible solutions, please do rethink your thoughts.



As far as having gays meet together to discuss their situations is a terrible way to go about helping them, what evidence do those of you who oppose it have, other than personal opinion?



There are those who will say that it just makes common sense that those type of meetings are just plain stupid, but is common sense right all the time...or even most of the time?



I have ADHD, the hyperactive type, there are three different types, hyperactive, day dreamer, and hyperactive and day dreamer. Now, does common sense dictate that in order to calm me down and help me focus better, that taking speed in the morning would do both. No, common sense would state that doing that would do just the opposite. Does anybody here disagree to that?



Shoot, I have a friend who also has ADHD and about an hour before he goes to bed, he drinks a cup of coffee or takes half a caffeine tablet. It helps him go to sleep, otherwise, if he didn't, he would have trouble falling to sleep and then he wouldn't be have enough sleep when he wakes up in the morning to get ready for work.

I understand. I also have ADD. My opinion was not based on logic, it was based on observation. I have never seen gays get together and good come of it. In my observation gays do better in close, loving, functional family environments. I fully acknowledge that my observation is not scientific and from a realitively small pool.

ABYUFAN wrote:

I wasn’t just talking of sexual sin, there are all sorts of addicting temptations out there ranging from drug additions to alcohol addictions, obsessive compulsive additions etc. There is no healthy outlet for an alcoholic, or someone addicted to painkillers.

Apples and oranges. Who you are attracted to both sexually and a life partner and all that goes with that--raising kids, living together, co-owning property, having someone to make joint life and death decisions is a fundamental part of being human and you just can't compare that desire to a housewife's addiction to pain pills.

ABYUFAN wrote:

I believe that the very problem that some of these you tubers face is that they believe that their issues are so much greater than the issues of those around them.

They are much greater, clearly.

Larrycoug wrote:

I wasn’t just talking of sexual sin, there are all sorts of addicting temptations out there ranging from drug additions to alcohol addictions, obsessive compulsive additions etc. There is no healthy outlet for an alcoholic, or someone addicted to painkillers.

Apples and oranges. Who you are attracted to both sexually and a life partner and all that goes with that--raising kids, living together, co-owning property, having someone to make joint life and death decisions is a fundamental part of being human and you just can't compare that desire to a housewife's addiction to pain pills.

ABYUFAN wrote:

I believe that the very problem that some of these you tubers face is that they believe that their issues are so much greater than the issues of those around them.

They are much greater, clearly.

So their issues are too great for the healing power of the Savior? These people need the world to know of their problems, because the Savior cannot help them? Is the Savior only sufficient for us "common" sinners, who so suck at this life that we have to face common every day sins and the spectacular sins are reserved for those special people who don't need the Savior? Is that what you're saying? Because, ultimately, that's what I was getting at. We all need the help of the Savior and I don't think that that can be found on you tube.



Oh, and it's nice that it's the housewife's addiction to pain pills ...I wonder what THAT says about you....

So, it's okay to be an "alcoholic," an "addict," but as soon as you say "gay" you're condemned for failure to strictly categorize your plight? What's the difference between addict:someone who has tendency toward imbibing no-no substances and gay:someone who has homosexual tendencies?

ABYUFAN wrote:

ABYUFAN wrote:

I wasn’t just talking of sexual sin, there are all sorts of addicting temptations out there ranging from drug additions to alcohol addictions, obsessive compulsive additions etc. There is no healthy outlet for an alcoholic, or someone addicted to painkillers.

Apples and oranges. Who you are attracted to both sexually and a life partner and all that goes with that--raising kids, living together, co-owning property, having someone to make joint life and death decisions is a fundamental part of being human and you just can't compare that desire to a housewife's addiction to pain pills.

ABYUFAN wrote:

I believe that the very problem that some of these you tubers face is that they believe that their issues are so much greater than the issues of those around them.

They are much greater, clearly.

So their issues are too great for the healing power of the Savior?

Huh? No one said, or suggested, that.



Being gay in the church means dedicating your life to living and dying alone with no offspring. Also, you are expected to hide the fact that you are not attracted to the opposite sex. Oh, and you'll never be put in any meaningful leadership role in the church. Just seems like the most difficult challenge in the church to me.

I thought that this thread was going to be a rumor about the new BYU president. Someone who just got appointed as a GA last conference. That person being Elder Robert C. Gay. Guess I was wrong.

Larrycoug wrote:

Larrycoug wrote:

I wasn’t just talking of sexual sin, there are all sorts of addicting temptations out there ranging from drug additions to alcohol addictions, obsessive compulsive additions etc. There is no healthy outlet for an alcoholic, or someone addicted to painkillers.

Apples and oranges. Who you are attracted to both sexually and a life partner and all that goes with that--raising kids, living together, co-owning property, having someone to make joint life and death decisions is a fundamental part of being human and you just can't compare that desire to a housewife's addiction to pain pills.

ABYUFAN wrote:

I believe that the very problem that some of these you tubers face is that they believe that their issues are so much greater than the issues of those around them.

They are much greater, clearly.

So their issues are too great for the healing power of the Savior?

Huh? No one said, or suggested, that.



Being gay in the church means dedicating your life to living and dying alone with no offspring. Also, you are expected to hide the fact that you are not attracted to the opposite sex. Oh, and you'll never be put in any meaningful leadership role in the church. Just seems like the most difficult challenge in the church to me.

And what "meaningful calling" is that run-of-the-mill "housewife addicted to painkillers" going to have? And is it any harder to know that you'll never have any offspring, or to know that you've lost yours?



My first post was that my fear was that the folks posting the youtube videos were essentially placing their trust in the arm of the flesh, and you countered that their challenges were greater than everyone else's which seems like a non-sequiter for my concern, unless one is to infer that church is for common peoples' challenges...like drug adicted housewives, but not good enough for these greate® challenges



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All I know is that there are only two sins that can halt progression. Being gay is not one of them.

Lawboy wrote:
All I know is that there are only two sins that can halt progression. Being gay is not one of them.

This is false and incorrect doctrine.



EVERY sin can and will halt progression.



Anyone who does not fully accept the Atonement of Jesus Christ and have their sins washed clean by the blood of the Lamb, everyone's progression will be halted. The Lord does not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. Even the smallest of sins is sufficient to halt progress.



Repentance and the Atonement are essential to avoid a halting in progression.



There is only one sin for which the sinner cannot receive forgiveness and that is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

snoscythe wrote:
So, it's okay to be an "alcoholic," an "addict," but as soon as you say "gay" you're condemned for failure to strictly categorize your plight? What's the difference between addict:someone who has tendency toward imbibing no-no substances and gay:someone who has homosexual tendencies?

Regardless as to whether being gay is a condition one is born with or whether it's a complex psychological condition, it would be incorrect to equate being gay to any addiction. There may be a component of addiction for many gay people, but in most cases where people want to "overcome" their homosexuality, the addiction must be treated as a separate condition.



My point is, "addict" is a temporary label, not a permanent state of being, so while it's useful to clearly identify that you have a problem, anyone who really wants to change that will at some point separate the tendencies they have from their personal identity. So maybe while these are totally different, they're similar in that if someone gay wants to change in a lasting way they will have to do the same thing.