Response to “Are Mormons Closer to Muslims or Christians?”

Ddawg wrote:



Are there any Christian based countries committed to the genocide of anyone because of their faith or ethnicity?

The crusades comes to mind. Plenty of radical Christian groups today are pretty violent against homosexuality, mormons and just about anything else not part of their immediate dogma.



Christianity was a major driving factor in the European conquest of the Americas, completely destroying the Native Americans. 95% of Nazi Germany was Christian and Christinanity was used by slavers in America, the Inquisition, and was the major political power during the dark ages.



So yes, I do think Christianity has more than its fair share of historical and modern blemishes.

CougarClaw wrote:

Christianity was a major driving factor in the European conquest of the Americas, completely destroying the Native Americans.

Really? I think there must be some hiding somewhere, because I've personally known many American Indians.



And make no mistake about it, the conquistadores were not sent to the Americas to kill or convert the infidels, they were sent here for wealth, plain and simple. The "Holy Inquisition" and such were simply by products of greed.

Schmoe wrote:

Christianity was a major driving factor in the European conquest of the Americas, completely destroying the Native Americans.

Really? I think there must be some hiding somewhere, because I've personally known many American Indians.



And make no mistake about it, the conquistadores were not sent to the Americas to kill or convert the infidels, they were sent here for wealth, plain and simple. The "Holy Inquisition" and such were simply by products of greed.

Doesn't make much difference in the end though. Islam and Christianity have both been exploited to create violence and hatred against another group. You could use the same argument that "Al qaeda and Terrorist Muslims" are simply by products of greed as well. I mean, look no further than Northern Ireland to see how much hate exists within Christian communities.



I think CougarClaw makes a valid point. Most of what we hear about Islam is sensationalized....

BroncoBot wrote:

CougarClaw wrote:

Christianity was a major driving factor in the European conquest of the Americas, completely destroying the Native Americans.

Really? I think there must be some hiding somewhere, because I've personally known many American Indians.



And make no mistake about it, the conquistadores were not sent to the Americas to kill or convert the infidels, they were sent here for wealth, plain and simple. The "Holy Inquisition" and such were simply by products of greed.

Doesn't make much difference in the end though. Islam and Christianity have both been exploited to create violence and hatred against another group. You could use the same argument that "Al qaeda and Terrorist Muslims" are simply by products of greed as well. I mean, look no further than Northern Ireland to see how much hate exists within Christian communities.



I think CougarClaw makes a valid point. Most of what we hear about Islam is sensationalized....

Not disagreeing that it's sensationalized, but that the comparison between the violence in modern Christians and Muslims is a HUGE stretch at best.

Schmoe wrote:

Schmoe wrote:

Christianity was a major driving factor in the European conquest of the Americas, completely destroying the Native Americans.

Really? I think there must be some hiding somewhere, because I've personally known many American Indians.



And make no mistake about it, the conquistadores were not sent to the Americas to kill or convert the infidels, they were sent here for wealth, plain and simple. The "Holy Inquisition" and such were simply by products of greed.

Doesn't make much difference in the end though. Islam and Christianity have both been exploited to create violence and hatred against another group. You could use the same argument that "Al qaeda and Terrorist Muslims" are simply by products of greed as well. I mean, look no further than Northern Ireland to see how much hate exists within Christian communities.



I think CougarClaw makes a valid point. Most of what we hear about Islam is sensationalized....

Not disagreeing that it's sensationalized, but that the comparison between the violence in modern Christians and Muslims is a HUGE stretch at best.

how about modern muslims vs dark ages Christianity? ;)

BroncoBot wrote:

Not disagreeing that it's sensationalized, but that the comparison between the violence in modern Christians and Muslims is a HUGE stretch at best.

how about modern muslims vs dark ages Christianity? ;)[/quote]



Ah, The Dark Ages, the great apostasy when the gospel was not found on the Earth, sure, I'll gladly grant that that was the height of violence in the name of Christianity.

CougarClaw wrote:

Are there any Christian based countries committed to the genocide of anyone because of their faith or ethnicity?

The crusades comes to mind. Plenty of radical Christian groups today are pretty violent against homosexuality, mormons and just about anything else not part of their immediate dogma.

Clarification - I'm talking about the 21st Century - here and now. Are there any Christian based countries (Europe, Canada, USA, all South American countries, Australia, Pacific Island nations, etc.) committed to the complete annihilation and genocide of another country because of their ethnicity and faith? The answer is "no."



Also - please show me a Christian church that actively kills homosexuals and Mormons. I would like to be made aware of that. Because, I don't know of any Christian church that recruits, and trains groups of Christians for the express purpose of killing homosexuals and Mormons - year, after year, after year. That is something we should all be made aware of. Thx!

Schmoe wrote:

Not disagreeing that it's sensationalized, but that the comparison between the violence in modern Christians and Muslims is a HUGE stretch at best.

Why?



How many violent muslims do you think there are in the world? 50,000? 100,000? how about a million? (al queda in all it's glory is estimated to only have around 1000 core members) Do you realize that even if there were as many violent muslims as there were total members of the LDS church, it would still represent less than a tenth of a percent of the 1.6BILLION Muslims in the world?



and yet our sensationalist media still paints the world's second largest religion with this despicable violence brush that is perpetuated by our geographical, cultural, and language distance. Not to mention plenty of ignorance.



The really funny thing is how they look at us and see how immoral, violent, cruel and petty we are. Even if they secretly love Baywatch. For those who think that Muslims are solely violent people here's a few statistics for you.



let's look at a few violent Muslim countries out there: (homicides per 100k people)

Egypt 1.1

Tunisia 1.1

jordan 1.8

saudi arabia 1.0



and here are some of the more violent countries:

Palestine 4.1

Iraq 2.0

Syria 2.3

Iran 3.0



want to know what the rate for the US ?

a whopping 4.4. Even higher than Palestine. And I picked these at random. no cherry picking the lowest ones.



Want to know the World average is? 6.9.

Even if they wanted to, muslims don't have to kill us, we're doing a good job of that on our own. Now I'm not trying to excuse violence on either side. but the numbers are simply not there to back the extrapolation of violence of a very, VERY few onto the whole.



here's another interesting question... how many arabic words do you know? I'm going to guess that for most people one of the only words of that truly beautiful language is "Jihad".

Think about that. why do you think that is?



How would you feel if the only word Muslims learned about Christianity was "molestation" or "Ku Klux Klan"? That's about how far apart we are.

CougarClaw wrote:



For those who think that Muslims are solely violent people here's a few statistics for you.

If you are including me in the above statement - you are incorrect. I do not think, believe, or infer that "Muslims are solely violent people".



That said, I stand by my statement that I have posted - show me a Christian based country right now - in the 21st century - that is committed to the complete annihilation of another race (Jews). You cannot.



Now, does that mean I believe that all Muslims are violent? No. Do I believe that the majority of Muslims are violent? No.



But - let's not play games here and parse words - Iran (a Muslim based country that kills homosexuals and has convicted a Christian man and condemned him to death because he abandoned Islam) is committed to completely destroying Israel and the Jews. They are developing nuclear capability for that purpose.



http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/22/christian-pastor-sentenced-to-death-in-iran-for-abandoning-islam/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



So - am I smugly holding out Christianity are superior to Islam? No. I am stating a fact - no Christian based country in the entire world, right now, is committed to the complete annihilation and genocide of an entire ethnic group (the Jews) - as some Islamic countries are (including Iran, Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon once Hezbollah takes over).

Ddawg wrote:



Clarification - I'm talking about the 21st Century - here and now. Are there any Christian based countries (Europe, Canada, USA, all South American countries, Australia, Pacific Island nations, etc.) committed to the complete annihilation and genocide of another country because of their ethnicity and faith? The answer is "no."

actually what you've described is exactly the Middle Eastern understanding of what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. I've been to both Israel and Palestine and I've seen the walls, the barbed wire, and the massive refugee towns in Jordan for those who managed to flee. Israel runs multiple checkpoints all across Palestinian territories, conducts raids, imprisons at will, and settles in lands Israel conquered through military power.



Hopefully that description stirs up images of the Jewish ghettos in World War II, and that's the true irony isn't it?



Now I understand it's a no-win situation for either side and that the jews understandably feel that it's a "us or them" and deal with rocket attacks, rocks and suicide bombs. But what we don't hear about in this country is how awful life is in Palestine. They don't have a life like the Israelis, you or I. They are starving, desperate, and angry. and they have to fight US tanks, US firearms, and US helicopters on a regular basis.



so from their standpoint, our very Christian nation is the one committed to the complete annihilation and genocide of the Palestinian people. Wouldn't that make you angry?

Ddawg wrote:

For those who think that Muslims are solely violent people here's a few statistics for you.

If you are including me in the above statement - you are incorrect. I do not think, believe, or infer that "Muslims are solely violent people".

then that statement is not for you.



as for Iran, don't confuse wacky government leaders as representing the mindset of an entire nation. We know about that all too well in this country. Ahmadinejad has plenty of critics in his own country.

It's true - Ahmadinejad has many detractors in Iran - to the point that there are serious accusations of corrupt/rigged elections so he can stay in office and the Islamic theocracy.



That said - Iran is still a Muslim based theocracy, dedicated to the utter annihilation of the entire Jewish race.



Let's take Germany in the late 1930's. Not all Germans supported Adolph Hitler. Just the same, he was able to wreak destruction throughout Europe, plunge the world into war, and kill over 6 million Jews. Modern day Iran would have no problem doing the exact same thing - and more - if they could get away with it.

Khamenei: Zionist regime will disappear from map



By HERB KEINON, 8/15/2012



http://www.jpost.com/IranianThreat/News/Article.aspx?id=281366" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;





Do all Iranians and Muslims agree with the Iranian theocratic leaders? No. But, these guys run a nuclear country, and they have an agenda of genocide based on religion and ethnicity.

The palestianians have it so tough under Israel, I bet they wish they could go back to the days when they were kept as dogs under the Egyptians who treated them even worse...



Muslims are so peace loving, yet no major Muslim organization has ever come out in defiance of the acts of terrorism. No major Muslim group decries the death sentences decreed for anyone who speaks disrespectfully of their prophet.



If you truly believe that Muslims are solely peace loving people, send your mother, wife, sister, or daughter to live as a muslim woman in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or Egypt.

hawkwing wrote:

If you truly believe that Muslims are solely peace loving people, send your mother, wife, sister, or daughter to live as a muslim woman in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or Egypt.

Better yet, draw and publish a picture of Mohammed.

hawkwing wrote:
The palestianians have it so tough under Israel, I bet they wish they could go back to the days when they were kept as dogs under the Egyptians who treated them even worse...

Interesting point. Things have changed quite a bit since then, and I think Palestinians would relish the thought of being under Egyptian rule under ANYBODY else's rule today.

hawkwing wrote:
Muslims are so peace loving, yet no major Muslim organization has ever come out in defiance of the acts of terrorism. No major Muslim group decries the death sentences decreed for anyone who speaks disrespectfully of their prophet.

Here you are:

http://kurzman.unc.edu/islamic-statements-against-terrorism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Many, many Islamist do not agree with terrorism. But they don't have a pope or a central leader that can speak for everyone like we're familiar with and expecting. Our media paints them as a roving horde of bloodthirsty pagans and statements made by significant leaders of Islam are simply not news here.

hawkwing wrote:
If you truly believe that Muslims are solely peace loving people, send your mother, wife, sister, or daughter to live as a muslim woman in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or Egypt.

I have. I've lived in Jordan and brought my wife out with me. Amman has less crime than the great Utah metropolis of Salt Lake City. We learned quite a bit from the women out there. One of my biggest shocks was learning that many women there see their society as protecting women's morality and place in society and doesn't exploit women like ours does. Many do not see or feel repression at all.



You're understandably trying to apply modern, western standards of acceptance, tolerance and feminism on an ancient nomadic culture where it simply doesn't fit.



I really liked this cartoon:

http://thebaochi.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/cartoon.jpg?w=640" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

No, I'm talking about the women who live in Egypt who used to be free to live their lives any way they wanted to, whether it conform to Muslim ideals of modesty or not, but now that the government has been over thrown and a Muslim theocracy installed women are regularly raped and beaten.

As for the palestinians, they would literally rather die than live in peace with the Jews. I don't fault the Jewish people one bit for doing whatever is necessary to protect themselves from those who continuously kill and main them. The palestinians have continuously turned down and abused peaceful gestures from the Israelis.

Ddawg wrote:
It's true - Ahmadinejad has many detractors in Iran - to the point that there are serious accusations of corrupt/rigged elections so he can stay in office and the Islamic theocracy.



That said - Iran is still a Muslim based theocracy, dedicated to the utter annihilation of the entire Jewish race.

This is the western perspective. and it's valid in it's own argument. I don't disagree, it's awful.



Now try to look at it from the Palestinian perspective. Iran is protecting their Palestinian brothers from annihilation. Israel has already invaded Palestinian lands and in no way can be convinced to leave. They were not there "first" and some British declaration for an Israeli state means little to those already there. Now Israel threatens the indigenous population with economic and cultural annihilation using US guns and ammunition. The only way to prevent that is by removing and undermining the "oppressors". Can't you see the self-defense argument? There's two sides to this and no one, not even our beloved Israel, has clean hands in this mess.

Ddawg wrote:
Let's take Germany in the late 1930's. Not all Germans supported Adolph Hitler. Just the same, he was able to wreak destruction throughout Europe, plunge the world into war, and kill over 6 million Jews.

but yet after all the horrible things wrought by nazi germany, I bet you still can sit down with a german today and not worry whether he's going to kill you. I suspect you would not feel nearly as comfortable with a Muslim. Why is that? You view the German as civilized despite what Germany did or was capable of. And despite learning the radical Islam is not Islam, I continue to hear statements indicting the entire group. That's wrong.

Ddawg wrote:
Modern day Iran would have no problem doing the exact same thing - and more - if they could get away with it.

yes Iran probably would, because Israel is currently getting away with extinguishing the Palestinians. It's happening right now. And ugly as it is that's what war does: eliminate your enemies. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a solution. I don't advocate what either side wants to do, I just have a much different perspective than the pro-Israeli diet we're fed here dictates.

hawkwing wrote:
No, I'm talking about the women who live in Egypt who used to be free to live their lives any way they wanted to, whether it conform to Muslim ideals of modesty or not, but now that the government has been over thrown and a Muslim theocracy installed women are regularly raped and beaten.

and yet women are regularly raped and beaten in this country as well. According to this website, US rapes per capita are more than 30x what they are in Egypt.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Clearly the counter argument is that Egyptian data just goes unreported but I would not be surprised at all to learn that Egypt still has a far lower rate than we do, revolution and all. I suppose it's impossible to prove but sensational accounts do not indict the society, they only serve to reinforce false western stereotypes. Surely Muslim society has issues. It's not a Utopia. My argument is that ours, in many ways, is worse and that theirs, in more ways, is much better than you give it credit for.