Response to “Are Mormons Closer to Muslims or Christians?”

CougarClaw wrote:
I have. I've lived in Jordan and brought my wife out with me. Amman has less crime than the great Utah metropolis of Salt Lake City. We learned quite a bit from the women out there. One of my biggest shocks was learning that many women there see their society as protecting women's morality and place in society and doesn't exploit women like ours does. Many do not see or feel repression at all.



You're understandably trying to apply modern, western standards of acceptance, tolerance and feminism on an ancient nomadic culture where it simply doesn't fit.

You sure it wasn't a Potemkin village?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MEquLcPomM&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkGQmCZjJ0k

imuakahuku wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkGQmCZjJ0k

So here Col. West uses past atrocities to enforce his argument, but CougarClaw can't?



Here Col. West describes the Koran as the playbook that terrorists are using to wage war against free countries. Couldn't an argument be made that the Bible, even the D&C contain inflammatory statements?



I don't buy either of those. I think the confusion shown by these guys when originally asked the question shows how much they really know about these fights we are in and the people involved. Actually makes me a little sick.



I still maintain that radical muslims do not Islam make.

Thank you gentlemen (Hawkwing and Imuakahuku) for providing those videos. It is one thing to treat Islam fairly but totally another to ignore history, candy coat ideology, and align our interests with theirs as if they were the same. Our primary interests are spiritual, Islam's primary interest has always been political power.



People that want us to believe otherwise have not studied history and do not put current events into their proper context.



Much of the history of misbehavior by the Catholic church was a result of what they learned from Islam. Convert or die came from Islam. This country got black slavery from Islam. Our marines were created for the purpose of fighting Muslims to protect our merchant ships. These are people that kill people for converting to Christianity. During WWII they wore Nazi uniforms and perpetuated the "final solution" against Jews. The thing we hate most about Nazis is a central element to Islam.



"Radical Islam" would be a peaceful Muslim, not the other way around.

CougarClaw wrote:




And despite learning the radical Islam is not Islam, I continue to hear statements indicting the entire group. That's wrong.

Whaaat? I have "learned" that radical Islam is not Islam? LOL! Who enlightened me? Where did I "learn" that from? Ha ha ha!



Let me fill you in a little bit. When I was getting my history degree I took as many classes as I could on the Middle East. I studied and wrote numerous papers on Islam, the development of Islam. I do not consider myself an expert - but I have studied Islam extensively for years. So, no one has taught me that radical Islam is not Islam. I have never believed that. You are attributing thoughts and beliefs to me that I have never held.



Any statements that you are attributing to me, that I am condemning ALL Muslims is your misunderstanding of any statement I have made. Because I do not believe that. I have never believed that. I have not posted that. I do not espouse that.



I still stand by my original statement - it is factual. There are Islamic based nations today that are committed to the complete destruction and annihilation of the Jewish people, based on ethnicity and faith. There is no Christian based nation today, that is committed to the total annihilation of any group of people based on ethnicity and faith.



Read into that statement whatever you want. It is correct and factual.

tww wrote:
Our primary interests are spiritual, Islam's primary interest has always been political power.

who is "OUR"?

tww wrote:

People that want us to believe otherwise have not studied history and do not put current events into their proper context.

:roll:

tww wrote:

Much of the history of misbehavior by the Catholic church was a result of what they learned from Islam. Convert or die came from Islam. This country got black slavery from Islam. Our marines were created for the purpose of fighting Muslims to protect our merchant ships. These are people that kill people for converting to Christianity. During WWII they wore Nazi uniforms and perpetuated the "final solution" against Jews. The thing we hate most about Nazis is a central element to Islam.

And in turn, if you really look at history, you could argue that the Muslims learned this from the Old Testament... right? (Joshua 10:40)



"Radical Islam" would be a peaceful Muslim, not the other way around.[/quote]

BroncoBot wrote:

Our primary interests are spiritual, Islam's primary interest has always been political power.

who is "OUR"?



And in turn, if you really look at history, you could argue that the Muslims learned this from the Old Testament... right? (Joshua 10:40)

[/quote]



If your primary interests are not spiritual then please forgive me for inadvertently including you.



As far as Joshua 10:40, Are you saying that God has commanded us to kill all Muslims? Because that would seem to be a necessary conclusion if you are using it to justify terrorism and genocide. So Muslims go around quoting Joshua 10:40? Really?



I was refering to actual war between Christians and Muslims. They both came into power about the same time and ran headlong into each other. The Christians put together the New Testament, the Muslims put together the Koran. Neither was founded in the Old Testament.

BroncoBot wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkGQmCZjJ0k

So here Col. West uses past atrocities to enforce his argument, but CougarClaw can't?



Here Col. West describes the Koran as the playbook that terrorists are using to wage war against free countries. Couldn't an argument be made that the Bible, even the D&C contain inflammatory statements?



I don't buy either of those. I think the confusion shown by these guys when originally asked the question shows how much they really know about these fights we are in and the people involved. Actually makes me a little sick.



I still maintain that radical muslims do not Islam make.

As opposed to how they commit no atrocities now? So lets not look at the pattern because they no longer follow it. :roll:

Here is my take. There were two plans presented in the Grand Council. Which religion follows the first plan presented and which follows the plan that got voted down? But as was pointed out earlier, Islam is not a religion but a theocracy. It "tells" the people how they will live.

Referring to your cartoon, all the women in my ward come to church in a bikini, as well as all the women at work, the ones at the mall, matter of fact if I hadn't seen that cartoon I wouldn't have noticed how much we exploit our women by making them wear next to nothing everywhere. Okay I get it, it was just kind of showing the extreem, just how Muslim women don't always go around fully covered, I know they dress down when they go to say the bathroom, the kitchen or the bedroom. Its nice they are being so well protected from things like voting, owning property, divorce, driving, being anywhere in the presence of another man. If only we could learn that here. How happy our wives would be! And we could protect our wives and daughters with genital mutilation so they don't have to "enjoy" sex, stoning to keep them chaste, honor killing, pre-teen marriage, what an advanced society! We sure could learn a lot from them. And you could even "rent" your pre-teen to teenage daughter to an imam to "service" the pilgrams so they can concentrate on worshipping and not worry about the next time they have sex. Oh and go tell the women reporters in Egypt that were gang raped how nice Islam is. Oh wait that happened in the past, years ago-well almost a year, months ago so let's not dwell on things of the past.



Islam is evil. There are many Muslims that are not evil but the religion they practice is. It has it's hand in much of the violence that afflicts this world. It preaches the death, enslavement, or dhimmi status to every person of every other religion. It lives by the sword and has been spread by the sword.



So I am offended by even the suggestion that His church is even remotely like that of the Muslim religion. And anyone trying to claim tolerance and understanding should go to a street corner in Jordan, holding a bible (or BOM) and preach about God's love. Let's see what happens in the name of "tolerance". Understand that on those "Coexist" bumper stickers the letter C wants to pull a "pac-man" on the rest of them and gobble them all up.



What would you do if you caught your muslim neighbor throwing a BOM in the toilet? What we he do if he caught you doing the same to a Qur'an? How many from your EQ or High Priests Quorem would be trying to burn down his house? But if you did it, not only would he claim offense but there would be riots in Europe, Africa, and Asia, and you would end up in hiding.



Nope, not even a close comparison. It's like saying a tomato and a watermelon are the same, after all they are both fruit. (Well, unless you are from the government, then a tomato is a veggie but you still eat both of them-unless you are my wife ;) ).

CougarClaw wrote:
I have. I've lived in Jordan and brought my wife out with me. Amman has less crime than the great Utah metropolis of Salt Lake City. We learned quite a bit from the women out there. One of my biggest shocks was learning that many women there see their society as protecting women's morality and place in society and doesn't exploit women like ours does. Many do not see or feel repression at all.



You're understandably trying to apply modern, western standards of acceptance, tolerance and feminism on an ancient nomadic culture where it simply doesn't fit.

You sure it wasn't a Potemkin village?

Sorry, but I can't leave this without a response. Spiff is being TIC here but there is truth to what he is saying. I want to be nice but I also have to be blunt.



CougarClaw:

Have you never heard of Stockholm syndrome? Have you never heard of the communist indoctrination camps where people come out, if they come out, good communists? The only ones that survive those camps are the ones that turn in their friends. Do you not remember the crew of the Pueblo that told the world that they were having a great time in North Korea? Fortunately the North Koreans hadn't brushed up on their Morse code.



The argument that you make is the same as is made for all forms of extreme oppression, be it Islam, communism, or slavery. We have to be smart enough to realize that hostages with a knife at their throat say whatever they have to say to survive.



I find your statement, "You're understandably trying to apply modern, western standards of acceptance, tolerance and feminism on an ancient nomadic culture where it simply doesn't fit," to be both telling and disturbing. Do you realize that this is exactly the same argument made for upholding slavery? Oppression is oppression and the more oppressed someone is the more likely they are to tell you that they love being oppressed.



You also mention the lack of crime in Muslim communities. Yes they don't have much crime and they will tell you that they don't have homosexuality either. Yes their is more crime in an American town. The reason Muslim countries and villages have less crime is because of the way they deal with it not because of higher moral character. We could be crime free here in America too if we beheaded first offenders.



Islam has a long history and is well practiced in psychological oppression and indoctrination. One of the more fiendish practices of ancient Islam was to kidnap Christian children, turn them into cold blooded killers and teach them to hate the Christian people. Then they would send them back to murder their own families.



If my family and I are ever held hostage, I hope that someone is wise enough to not just listen to what I say but be aware of what I don't say or do and recognize a bad situation.



I believe that Islam is one of the groups we were warned about by both Nephi and Christ. The facts are plainly before us if we will see them.

'Tumour' of Israel will soon be destroyed: Ahmadinejad"



August 17, 2012



Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told an annual anti-Israel protest in Tehran on Friday that the Jewish state was a "cancerous tumour" that will soon be excised, drawing Western rebukes.



Washington said Ahmadinejad's statements were "reprehensible", while Paris viewed them as "outrageous."



Ahmadinejad's diatribe against Israel in his Quds (Jerusalem) Day address was the latest in a long line to have drawn criticism from Western governments.



"The Zionist regime and the Zionists are a cancerous tumour," he said.



"The nations of the region will soon finish off the usurper Zionists in the Palestinian land.... A new Middle East will definitely be formed. With the grace of God and help of the nations, in the new Middle East there will be no trace of the Americans and Zionists," he said."



http://news.yahoo.com/tumour-israel-soon-destroyed-ahmadinejad-091548418.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ddawg wrote:
'Tumour' of Israel will soon be destroyed: Ahmadinejad"



August 17, 2012



Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told an annual anti-Israel protest in Tehran on Friday that the Jewish state was a "cancerous tumour" that will soon be excised, drawing Western rebukes.



Washington said Ahmadinejad's statements were "reprehensible", while Paris viewed them as "outrageous."



Ahmadinejad's diatribe against Israel in his Quds (Jerusalem) Day address was the latest in a long line to have drawn criticism from Western governments.



"The Zionist regime and the Zionists are a cancerous tumour," he said.



"The nations of the region will soon finish off the usurper Zionists in the Palestinian land.... A new Middle East will definitely be formed. With the grace of God and help of the nations, in the new Middle East there will be no trace of the Americans and Zionists," he said."



http://news.yahoo.com/tumour-israel-soon-destroyed-ahmadinejad-091548418.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't think anyone here agrees with Ahmadinejad. We all know how he feels. But he's not speaking for all of Islam.

tww wrote:

CougarClaw:

Have you never heard of Stockholm syndrome? Have you never heard of the communist indoctrination camps where people come out, if they come out, good communists? The only ones that survive those camps are the ones that turn in their friends. Do you not remember the crew of the Pueblo that told the world that they were having a great time in North Korea? Fortunately the North Koreans hadn't brushed up on their Morse code.

no. I haven't heard of any of these things.

tww wrote:
The argument that you make is the same as is made for all forms of extreme oppression, be it Islam, communism, or slavery. We have to be smart enough to realize that hostages with a knife at their throat say whatever they have to say to survive.



I find your statement, "You're understandably trying to apply modern, western standards of acceptance, tolerance and feminism on an ancient nomadic culture where it simply doesn't fit," to be both telling and disturbing. Do you realize that this is exactly the same argument made for upholding slavery?

Not sure I understand this part. Are you arguing that slavers felt they were helping nomadic and tribal Africans by bringing them to civilization? If so, how did that work out for them? clearly applying western standards to other culturals is a failed exercise which is exactly original point. If you meant something else, then I didn't follow.

tww wrote:
Oppression is oppression and the more oppressed someone is the more likely they are to tell you that they love being oppressed.

Unfortunately, there are quite a lot of very happy people in Communist China right now. And there are quite a lot of generally happy people in Iran as well. If you try and tell someone they're oppressed, and they disagree with you, what do you recommend is the best course of action?

tww wrote:
You also mention the lack of crime in Muslim communities. Yes they don't have much crime and they will tell you that they don't have homosexuality either. Yes their is more crime in an American town. The reason Muslim countries and villages have less crime is because of the way they deal with it not because of higher moral character. We could be crime free here in America too if we beheaded first offenders.

they also don't have the electric chair and lethal injection. Again, goes both ways.

tww wrote:
Islam has a long history and is well practiced in psychological oppression and indoctrination.

you've just defined religion as understood by athiests. All religions indoctrinate. that's why it's doctrine. as for psychological repression, Utah unfortunately leads the country in anti-depression medication.

tww wrote:
One of the more fiendish practices of ancient Islam was to kidnap Christian children, turn them into cold blooded killers and teach them to hate the Christian people. Then they would send them back to murder their own families.

can't speak to fringe and sensational events I've never heard of. Incidently Mainstream Christianity also has its bunch of loonies that I wouldn't want to be associated with either.

tww wrote:
I believe that Islam is one of the groups we were warned about by both Nephi and Christ. The facts are plainly before us if we will see them.

You are entitled to your beliefs. I would invite you to get to know a few Muslims, realize how their religion provides them with deep spirituality that many spring-break, Easter-only Christians lack, understand how much you can actually learn from them. Also remember that all good things come from God as 'warned' in Moroni. and there is plenty of good to be found in a Muslim family.

Ddawg wrote:

And despite learning the radical Islam is not Islam, I continue to hear statements indicting the entire group. That's wrong.

Whaaat? I have "learned" that radical Islam is not Islam? LOL! Who enlightened me? Where did I "learn" that from? Ha ha ha!



Let me fill you in a little bit. When I was getting my history degree I took as many classes as I could on the Middle East. I studied and wrote numerous papers on Islam, the development of Islam. I do not consider myself an expert - but I have studied Islam extensively for years. So, no one has taught me that radical Islam is not Islam. I have never believed that. You are attributing thoughts and beliefs to me that I have never held.



Any statements that you are attributing to me, that I am condemning ALL Muslims is your misunderstanding of any statement I have made. Because I do not believe that. I have never believed that. I have not posted that. I do not espouse that.

for someone claiming that a statement doesn't apply to your way of thinking, you're getting very defensive. If it doesn't apply to you then fine. I'm not on some kind of mission to pin you down. If you already knew that radical Islam was not representative then great.

Ddawg wrote:
I still stand by my original statement - it is factual. There are Islamic based nations today that are committed to the complete destruction and annihilation of the Jewish people, based on ethnicity and faith. There is no Christian based nation today, that is committed to the total annihilation of any group of people based on ethnicity and faith.



Read into that statement whatever you want. It is correct and factual.

Does this mean you disagree with my assertion that Israel is attempting the destruction of Palestine and the Palestinian people? And the US, as Israel's primary supporter, weapons dealer and protector it's Christian accomplice?

BroncoBot wrote:

'Tumour' of Israel will soon be destroyed: Ahmadinejad"



August 17, 2012



Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told an annual anti-Israel protest in Tehran on Friday that the Jewish state was a "cancerous tumour" that will soon be excised, drawing Western rebukes.



Washington said Ahmadinejad's statements were "reprehensible", while Paris viewed them as "outrageous."



Ahmadinejad's diatribe against Israel in his Quds (Jerusalem) Day address was the latest in a long line to have drawn criticism from Western governments.



"The Zionist regime and the Zionists are a cancerous tumour," he said.



"The nations of the region will soon finish off the usurper Zionists in the Palestinian land.... A new Middle East will definitely be formed. With the grace of God and help of the nations, in the new Middle East there will be no trace of the Americans and Zionists," he said."



http://news.yahoo.com/tumour-israel-soon-destroyed-ahmadinejad-091548418.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't think anyone here agrees with Ahmadinejad. We all know how he feels. But he's not speaking for all of Islam.

agreed.

Iran's leader is a sensationalist. He's a politician. He's also brilliant. Especially at getting people furious at foregin enemies in order to hide your own country's shortcomings and problems. Regardless, he's one of the reasons that makes Iran so scary. Hopefully he retires soon or is overthrown. Either way, he's a political and not a religious figure.

hawkwing wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MEquLcPomM&feature=player_embedded

this video was very interesting for a lot of reasons. It reminded me of the US using 9/11 as an excuse to invade Iraq. Iraq didn't bomb us. But in we went. We had to attack *someone*!



To quote Obama's Rahm Emanuel "you never want a good crisis to go to waste". This Saudi is arguing that the Jew's have been using the Holocaust as international capital to excuse and justify any action (or atrocity) that would not have been permitted most any other international entity. Clearly the holocaust was an unimaginable tragedy otherwise such capital would have been gone 60 years after the fact. 9/11 lost it's luster for us only a few short years later.



The bit about the blood matzos was really strange.

A great excuse to kill Jews, but don't worry, this guy only has millions and millions of followers, so it's a really "fringe" group. Just like every other group of Muslims in the world that also believe Jews should be annihilated.



But I have to give you props for being so politically correct.

imuakahuku wrote:



So I am offended by even the suggestion that His church is even remotely like that of the Muslim religion. And anyone trying to claim tolerance and understanding should go to a street corner in Jordan, holding a bible (or BOM) and preach about God's love. Let's see what happens in the name of "tolerance". Understand that on those "Coexist" bumper stickers the letter C wants to pull a "pac-man" on the rest of them and gobble them all up.



What would you do if you caught your muslim neighbor throwing a BOM in the toilet? What we he do if he caught you doing the same to a Qur'an? How many from your EQ or High Priests Quorem would be trying to burn down his house? But if you did it, not only would he claim offense but there would be riots in Europe, Africa, and Asia, and you would end up in hiding.

I don't even know where to start on this one. Your post is filled with mistrust, hate, and anger. My religion doesn't teach that. How are you so convinced of the evil of 1.6 Billion people? It's all about love my friend. Understanding and love. Right now, doesn't sound like this topic generates much of either for you which means we don't have anything to learn from each other.

hawkwing wrote:
A great excuse to kill Jews, but don't worry, this guy only has millions and millions of followers, so it's a really "fringe" group. Just like every other group of Muslims in the world that also believe Jews should be annihilated.



But I have to give you props for being so politically correct.

at no point have I disagreed that many muslims want the jews annihilated. They do. That's bad. I don't need to argue this point since it's pretty common knowledge.



What I do have to argue is the not-so-small detail that the jews are currently annihilating a Muslim nation. They are. Right now.



Islamic anger against the Jews is not completely unjustified. In the video the Saudi refers to Palestine as a kind of concentration camp. Well guess what, the Saudi is right! Palestine has checkpoints. Huge encompassing concrete walls. miles and miles of barbed wire, dogs, jeeps, and watchtowers. Stifling economic crackdowns. 0 foreign trade. blockades, crippling military checkpoints, random imprisonments. police brutality, and the list goes on and on.



Put yourself in their place for even a fraction of a moment and you'd want to "liberate" your brothers in Palestine too. It's an absolute mess. But it's a two-sided mess.

wow. too much cougarclaw on this page. sorry!