Different expectations for Basketball and Football

Until Bronco coaches basketball and Rose football, I think it's perfectly legitimate to hold them to different standards because their sports are, in fact different.

SpoCoug wrote:

jacksonman wrote:
I think it is important to point out that Bronco's best years/teams came with mostly Crowtons recruits. On top of that, an offense that sported Hall, Collie, Pitta and Unga was unable to break into the BCS, a crying shame and a big hit to Bronco, considering they all went on to the Pros, two of which becoming proven commodities in the NFL.



Football has done pretty well. Basketball has done better.

Shhhh, Jacksonman, you'll only upset them.



I really don't get the push back. I have no problem admitting BYU men's volleyball is more successful than basketball. Admitting such doesn't jeopardize my endearment for basketball or its coach.



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The issue wasn't which team has done better; it was whether Coach Rose is held to a different standard than Coach Mendenhall. Even if you assume that basketball has done better than football, that doesn't disprove Bib's "original" post on this (which I agree with, even though I love both coaches the same).

What standard are we to hold Bronco to?



What standard are we to hold Rose to?



IMO, the standard is the same: national prominence and success on a national level. A standard that both coaches have talked about and both have said they are working towards. One coach/team is getting there faster than the other; meanwhile, the other coach/team is spinning its wheels with the same albeit respectable result season after season.



If Rose failed to get BYU into the NCAA tournament on a regular basis and failed to win on that stage you can bet there would be disgruntled fans. I certainly have my issues with Rose, but have to admit he's got BYU moving in the right direction. There are only 4 other schools in the nation that have made more consecutive appearances in the NCAA tournament than BYU. You can't argue with that success.



Meanwhile, football is busy doing what it did 10 years ago and the fans are getting a little restless while our neighbors to the north enjoyed national success and appear to be moving onto bigger and better.



Harsher criticism of Bronco is justified if you believe compared to basketball football is under-performing. Hence, the tangent discussion on which team is more successful.

Rose appears to have a leg up on Bronco. That much I agree with.



But it's much easier to manage a basketball team vs a football team. Bronco has done great with his defense. His offenses have struggled, badly sometimes and I think this upsets a lot of BYU fans. They expect a high flying offense, and I believe that if BYU had a terrible defense but was scoring more and at the same time winning the same number of games, more people would be satisfied. Bronco gets his side of the football playing great. If a certain QB could have played like a D1 qb last year could have went a lot differently. If Doman was man enough to dump that certain qb earlier, last year would have gone a lot differently. Football is much harder to micromanage and part of this discussion revolves around the other coaches on BYU's staff that are either inexperienced or have struggled with their own assignments. As far as head coaching/defensive coordinator though, Bronco has done all the right things.

you can never turn a basketball center into a point guard.

I seem to remember Magic moving from PG to C in the NBA finals and winning the last game. I know I am old and he was 6' 9".

scott715 wrote:

you can never turn a basketball center into a point guard.

I seem to remember Magic moving from PG to C in the NBA finals and winning the last game. I know I am old and he was 6' 9".

Lebron can do damage at pretty much every position. And, I believe Kevin Garnett has played Center, Forward, and even Point Guard.

To BroncoBot, I would argue that Bronco is a much better D-Coordinator than Head Coach, and would be much better suited for that job. He doesn't seem to manage team emotion, preparation or drama well; but he is a good D-Coord and pseudo-GA.



Bronco's best teams were under Crowtons recruits. Roses best teams were his recruits and things appear to getting better. I expect to see more of the same under Bronco (which is always one or two steps below what it feels like we should be) and I expect Rose to take us to even greater heights.

jacksonman wrote:
To BroncoBot, I would argue that Bronco is a much better D-Coordinator than Head Coach, and would be much better suited for that job. He doesn't seem to manage team emotion, preparation or drama well; but he is a good D-Coord and pseudo-GA.



Bronco's best teams were under Crowtons recruits. Roses best teams were his recruits and things appear to getting better. I expect to see more of the same under Bronco (which is always one or two steps below what it feels like we should be) and I expect Rose to take us to even greater heights.

A good amount of Bronco's recruits are just now becoming upperclassmen and BYU was a hard sell when he first took over. I'm willing to wait a few more years to see how Bronco will do with the recruits he's bringing in now. I hate to keep bringing this up, but Heapsgate (with its entitled players and team DIS-unity) was a huge step backwards in BYU. Too bad Riley wasn't healthy in 2010 and it's too bad that Heaps just couldn't take a back seat for a year or two. And that reflects on Bronco of course, but when that's the biggest mark against you as a head coach, you're doing well.



Your post begs the question: who do you want to replace Bronco? Why are they more suited for the job?

I don't necessarily want Bronco replaced...yet. I think he has a lot of potential. But I would like to see more emotion from him, the passion that he seemed to have his first few years here. I would like to feel that he has actually overprepared for big games, rather than underprepared. I would like him to be more of a head coach and less of a D-Coord who has to deal with some team wide issues.



So far, he has yet to lead a team to over-performing or at least living up to expectations. It feels like we are consistently under-performing. I still have hope for him but my patience as a fan is getting less thick.

jacksonman wrote:
So far, he has yet to lead a team to over-performing or at least living up to expectations. It feels like we are consistently under-performing. I still have hope for him but my patience as a fan is getting less thick.

For Bronco the expectations seem to be to over-perform which isn't really fair to him.

1. Bronco talks NC, and "best season ever" all the time.



2. Rose doesn't. He just shuts up and let's his players do the talking.



3. Also, Rose loves the fans, and Bronco (up until possibly recently) has shown a strong dislike for them.





Do you really not see that reciprocating back at Bronco, and in favor of Rose?

Rose had the best player in college basketball and couldn't get past the sweet 16, and without the best player, hasn't been able to get out of the second round. Rose may very well end up missing out on the greatest LDS recruit ever. Rose generally makes the tourney and then gets bounced. What are Coach Rose's goals? He doesn't aim high, so he never achieves anything more than a simple tourney appearance.



NOTE-This is mostly TIC. Talking crap about any of our coaches is garbage, and it's done by garbage fans. A football team who consistently makes the top 25 and a basketball team that consistently makes the tourney makes us one of the best athletic schools in the country (at least in the only sports that really matter). This discussion has been asinine at best.

If Davies kept it in his pants, I have no doubt in my mind that we win the NC. With one fail swoop we went from having a strong inside presence, and the best backcourt combo in the nation, to NO inside presence whatsoever, and a 6'6" 185 lbs Charles Abuou starting at Power Forward.

scott715 wrote:

you can never turn a basketball center into a point guard.

I seem to remember Magic moving from PG to C in the NBA finals and winning the last game. I know I am old and he was 6' 9".

Oh, I'm sorry, you're right. I take it all back. :blush: Basketball and football are the same and we should evaluate both coaches in exactly the same manner. :roll: :D







I'm still glad I cheer for BYU rather than anyone in the Pac 12. :sick:

Schmoe wrote:
Rose had the best player in college basketball and couldn't get past the sweet 16, and without the best player, hasn't been able to get out of the second round.

If Davies kept it in his pants, I have no doubt in my mind that we win the NC or at least make a *serious* bid for it. With one fail swoop we went from having a strong inside presence, and the best backcourt combo in the nation, to NO inside presence whatsoever, and a 6'6" 185 lbs Charles Abuou starting at Power Forward.

Schmoe wrote:
NOTE-This is mostly TIC. Talking crap about any of our coaches is garbage, and it's done by garbage fans. A football team who consistently makes the top 25 and a basketball team that consistently makes the tourney makes us one of the best athletic schools in the country (at least in the only sports that really matter). This discussion has been asinine at best.

Agreed. Arguing about which sport is better is weird, and arguing about what coaches in what sports are better is weird too.



The good and bad thing about basketball is that you only have 11 people, so all you need is 1 Jimmer and 1 Emery, and you are suddenly serious contenders. But, everyone else has that chance too.



Football is harder to create a team, but easier to have continued dominance year after year.

Schmoe wrote:
Rose had the best player in college basketball and couldn't get past the sweet 16, and without the best player, hasn't been able to get out of the second round. Rose may very well end up missing out on the greatest LDS recruit ever. Rose generally makes the tourney and then gets bounced. What are Coach Rose's goals? He doesn't aim high, so he never achieves anything more than a simple tourney appearance.



NOTE-This is mostly TIC. Talking crap about any of our coaches is garbage, and it's done by garbage fans. A football team who consistently makes the top 25 and a basketball team that consistently makes the tourney makes us one of the best athletic schools in the country (at least in the only sports that really matter). This discussion has been asinine at best.

Amen! Well said

I find it entertaining when posters who spend time to come on to insult a topic after also spending time to write their opinion on the topic.



If fans can't talk about the direction the different sports are headed, and reasons for such, what can we discuss? Why even have these forums? When is it allowed to talk negatively at all about one's program?



Although BYU Football has ended the season strong most years and thus gaining a 20-25 ranking at the end of the year, most of these end of year victories are against nobodies. I can honestly say that I haven't felt that we were one the top 30-35 teams in the country, let alone top 25, several of the years we finished top-25, especially last year.



With Davies last year, the sky was the limit, we had just worked SD ST and had a #3 ranking, then the Davies wheel fell off and we lost to New Mexico, and never really recovered completely. Coach Rose coached Jimmer to make him what he was, came in prepared to games, and overachieved a few times.

jacksonman wrote:



Although BYU Football has ended the season strong most years and thus gaining a 20-25 ranking at the end of the year, most of these end of year victories are against nobodies. I can honestly say that I haven't felt that we were one the top 30-35 teams in the country, let alone top 25, several of the years we finished top-25, especially last year.

Well, I'm sorry that the national voters of the college football polls aren't respectful of your feelings :~( . I'm sorry that the football team faces nobodies while the basketball team is facing powerhouses like Iona. I find it funny when a new poster shows up just to piss all over Bronco Mendenhall. :sulk:

I am sorry Schmoe. I am a semi-newbie. Didn't know that I needed to be careful not to say mean things against your man-crush.



Let me repeat. Bronco is doing OK. Some of us are very worried we have hit a ceiling with him. Unless he beats, or at least strongly competes, with Utah this year and wins a big game or two on the road, many of us will concede a ceiling has been reached. Some of you fans seem so content with top 20-25 FINISHES without any real victories. Others dont mind watching what used to be surefire BYU signees go with the U or other school, with the justification that BYU wasn't right for them, or BYU was somehow better than them, so they choose to go elsewhere. I just don't like the DIRECTION this team is headed right now, which is one step about mediocre.



On the other hand, Rose seems to be taking his team in a different DIRECTION. The teams has had consistent success, overachieved, and appears to be on the up and up. I feel CONFIDENT that this team will be great for the next decade, and has the potential to be AMAZING!



I honestly don't know how BYU crept into the top-25 last year. Maybe it was a down year for college football but how does a team whose best victory was a fluke 1 point victory at Ole Miss and beating Tulsa after two months of prep in a sloppy game get into the top-25? Regardless of Utah's final record and pathetic loss against CU (without their QB), I would have much rather had their season (which is hard for me to say).



Time for Bronco to beat Utah this year and next year and get them asking for games during the two year "break".

jacksonman wrote:
I am sorry Schmoe. I am a semi-newbie. Didn't know that I needed to be careful not to say mean things against your man-crush.



Let me repeat. Bronco is doing OK. Some of us are very worried we have hit a ceiling with him. Unless he beats, or at least strongly competes, with Utah this year and wins a big game or two on the road, many of us will concede a ceiling has been reached. Some of you fans seem so content with top 20-25 FINISHES without any real victories. Others dont mind watching what used to be surefire BYU signees go with the U or other school, with the justification that BYU wasn't right for them, or BYU was somehow better than them, so they choose to go elsewhere. I just don't like the DIRECTION this team is headed right now, which is one step about mediocre.



On the other hand, Rose seems to be taking his team in a different DIRECTION. The teams has had consistent success, overachieved, and appears to be on the up and up. I feel CONFIDENT that this team will be great for the next decade, and has the potential to be AMAZING!



I honestly don't know how BYU crept into the top-25 last year. Maybe it was a down year for college football but how does a team whose best victory was a fluke 1 point victory at Ole Miss and beating Tulsa after two months of prep in a sloppy game get into the top-25? Regardless of Utah's final record and pathetic loss against CU (without their QB), I would have much rather had their season (which is hard for me to say).



Time for Bronco to beat Utah this year and next year and get them asking for games during the two year "break".

So, Bronco's 5 top 25 finishes (3 top 15) and two conference titles in six years are a "fluke" and the wrong direction for the program, even though the program had only had one ranked season from 1997-2005. But Rose's inability to win in Vegas, zero conference championships, the consistent first round exits, and the sweet sixteen exit with the Naismith Award winner is somehow "overachieving" and "the right direction." Again, you talk about your feelings, you FEEL that the basketball team will be amazing, while you FEEL like the football team is underachieving and you FEEL that a head coach who takes a team that has done nothing for a decade and makes them a consistent top 25 team for next decade is not a good head coach. Looks like you're the one with the man crush, dealing with all those pent-up feelings :love:



And yes, it does matter that you're new. You have established no credibility, no trust, and lack any logic to backup your arguments, just FEELINGS.