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Different expectations for Basketball and Football

by SpiffCoug · 8/12/2012

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G
Guest
So strange, between the two I would have assumed most fans would believe that it was the basketball program that had plateaued. With no conference tournament wins, no 2nd round tourney wins...



Personally I think we're moving in the right direction with both sports and am very excited about recruits for both and where we'll be going in the future.
S
Schmoe
Since Gunk is such a big fan of throwing numbers out there, I did a little number crunching of my own. Looking at all division one programs, here's how both teams have stacked up since our new coaches got momentum going:



2006: Football-15 (top 7%) Basketball-No tourney appearance (N/A)

2007: Football-14 (top 6%) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)

2008: Football-21 (top 9%) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)

2009: Football-12 (top 5%) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)

2010: Football-Not Ranked (N/A) Basketball-Top 32 (top 9%)

2011: Football-25 (top 11%) Basketball-Top 16 (top 5%)

2012: Football-Not Yet Available (INC) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)



Average percentage in D-1: Football-top 15% Basketball-top 20%



Surprise, surprise, our football team is actually doing better under Bronco than our basketball team is doing under Rose (really, they're doing about the same, but the expectations are always higher for football, which is why we hear all the moaning and groaning from fans about football and fans like Jackhole just sit contentedly with what basketball is doing). And all this despite the feelings of some fans, weird.
M
Mars


My comparison?

Hmm...



Making a post-season tournament in basketball is like making a bowl game in football (Top 60).

Making the NIT is like winning a bowl game (Top 30).

Making the NCAA Tourny (Top 64) is like finishing the season ranked (Top 25).

Winning a game in the NCAA Tourny (Top 32) is like finishing the season ranked and winning a bowl game (Top 20-ish).

Winning two games in the NCAA Tourny (Top 16) is like finishing the season ranked and winning a bowl game over a ranked opponent (Top 13-ish).

Winning 3 games in the NCAA Tourny (Top 8) is like making a BCS bowl game (Top 10).

Winning 4 games in the NCAA Tourny (Final Four) is like winning a BCS bowl game (Top 5).

Winning 5 games in the NCAA Tourny (Top 2) is like making the BCS Championship Game (Top 2).

And National championships correlate fairly well with each other, I would think.



How do the programs add up then?
B
BoiseBYU
jacksonman wrote:
I am sorry Schmoe. I am a semi-newbie. Didn't know that I needed to be careful not to say mean things against your man-crush.



Let me repeat. Bronco is doing OK. Some of us are very worried we have hit a ceiling with him. Unless he beats, or at least strongly competes, with Utah this year and wins a big game or two on the road, many of us will concede a ceiling has been reached. Some of you fans seem so content with top 20-25 FINISHES without any real victories. Others dont mind watching what used to be surefire BYU signees go with the U or other school, with the justification that BYU wasn't right for them, or BYU was somehow better than them, so they choose to go elsewhere. I just don't like the DIRECTION this team is headed right now, which is one step about mediocre.



On the other hand, Rose seems to be taking his team in a different DIRECTION. The teams has had consistent success, overachieved, and appears to be on the up and up. I feel CONFIDENT that this team will be great for the next decade, and has the potential to be AMAZING!



I honestly don't know how BYU crept into the top-25 last year. Maybe it was a down year for college football but how does a team whose best victory was a fluke 1 point victory at Ole Miss and beating Tulsa after two months of prep in a sloppy game get into the top-25? Regardless of Utah's final record and pathetic loss against CU (without their QB), I would have much rather had their season (which is hard for me to say).



Time for Bronco to beat Utah this year and next year and get them asking for games during the two year "break".


Jacksonman you need to meet Kingcoug. You'd get along swimmingly
J
jacksonman
I guess we shall see, like I have said a dozen times. This year will definitely be a shadow of things to come.



Many of you guys seem to have very short memories. Don't you remember the whoppings we received, at home, against Florida St and Utah?! Do you not remember losing to Utah St, our ugly step-sister?!



I do remember the basketball team barely losing to Baylor and Wake Forest when those teams were top 5 or 6. I do remember BYU dominating Utah for years and always being competitive with Utah St. I do remember beating SDST at home and on the road when they were top 10 or 12, and winning a few upseats on the road and at energy solutions.



In football we have lost the in-state dominance and are beginning to lose the recruiting battle. THIS YEAR IS A CROSSROADS!! We do well this year, and beat Utah and win another one or two big road games, and we can right the ship. 2010 was a bad year last year seemed just as bad (not one really good victory to hang our hats on).
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M
Mars


I remember that the last game the basketball team played, they lost by 20. Which was very reminiscent of past NCAA Tourny performances (see, BYU-TA&M x2). Drawing conclusions based one a bad game a season is fairly weak evidence of anything. Every team has bad games, almost every year.
S
Schmoe
I seem to remember in our best year of basketball, we got absolutely pummeled and embarrassed by New Mexico AT HOME (lost by 22) when we were ranked in the TOP 5, and then went on to get demolished by SDSU in the conference tourney (lost by 18). I remember that least season we lost to Utah St. and Loyola Marymount and got owned by St. Mary's.



Short memory indeed.
B
BoiseBYU
jacksonman wrote:
I guess we shall see, like I have said a dozen times. This year will definitely be a shadow of things to come.



Many of you guys seem to have very short memories. Don't you remember the whoppings we received, at home, against Florida St and Utah?! Do you not remember losing to Utah St, our ugly step-sister?!



I do remember the basketball team barely losing to Baylor and Wake Forest when those teams were top 5 or 6. I do remember BYU dominating Utah for years and always being competitive with Utah St. I do remember beating SDST at home and on the road when they were top 10 or 12, and winning a few upseats on the road and at energy solutions.



In football we have lost the in-state dominance and are beginning to lose the recruiting battle. THIS YEAR IS A CROSSROADS!! We do well this year, and beat Utah and win another one or two big road games, and we can right the ship. 2010 was a bad year last year seemed just as bad (not one really good victory to hang our hats on).


To define success as going 3-1 in our big road games and included in that a win over Utah is off. It is more than success it would be phenomenal. To just go 2-2 will be a MAJOR accomplishment in my book.
S
SpiffCoug
Going 2-2 is going to be very difficult. We're playing four very good teams on the road. And very good teams lose very few games at home.
G
Gunk
Schmoe wrote:
Since Gunk is such a big fan of throwing numbers out there, I did a little number crunching of my own. Looking at all division one programs, here's how both teams have stacked up since our new coaches got momentum going:



2006: Football-15 (top 7%) Basketball-No tourney appearance (N/A)

2007: Football-14 (top 6%) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)

2008: Football-21 (top 9%) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)

2009: Football-12 (top 5%) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)

2010: Football-Not Ranked (N/A) Basketball-Top 32 (top 9%)

2011: Football-25 (top 11%) Basketball-Top 16 (top 5%)

2012: Football-Not Yet Available (INC) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)



Average percentage in D-1: Football-top 15% Basketball-top 20%



Surprise, surprise, our football team is actually doing better under Bronco than our basketball team is doing under Rose (really, they're doing about the same, but the expectations are always higher for football, which is why we hear all the moaning and groaning from fans about football and fans like Jackhole just sit contentedly with what basketball is doing). And all this despite the feelings of some fans, weird.


Your numbers are off. There 119 football teams. A 15th ranking is top 12%.



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J
jacksonman
We lost to new Mexico right after Davies was suspended. Last year wad a rebuilding year for basketball. Getting outscored 80 to 60 in basketball is nothing like losing how we did to Florida st or Utah. Sure the basketball team loses some games, and gets beat soundly sometimes. But they also hand out some whippings and win some upsets. Dominating Utah and tying up the beat recruits in the state for years to come doesn't hurt either. The football team the last few years has predictably won all the patsies, except for Utah st, struggled with decent mid majors, and laid eggs against every good team when we had a chance to prove our ranking. Oklahoma was one exception and that was with crowtons recruits and with Bradford and their tight end out.



I am also getting tired of all the talk about how difficult this years schedule is. Highest ranked team is 22. All the allegedly good teams are in rebuilding mode. Every game is extremely winnable. Every singe one of these teams will lose several games this year. This was also the case last year, and Texas and tcu were both very vulnerable. Should have beat Texas. Poor coachin cost Us that game. It seems like bronco supporters are preparing to justify loses by making this years schedule harder than it really is. The utes shedule is probably much harder than ours is and I don't see their fans already justifying a 3 or 4 loss season.



If we are a big time program, in a year full if seniors, fans should be expecting at least going 2 and 2 in these 4 games and being competitive in the two loses. 3 and 1 shouldn't be a Cinderella year. We are a senior laden team and we should be able to play with just about anyone.



If we lose to Utah again, especially if we get dominated, and we win only one or none of the big 4, we will have cemented ourselves as the number 2 program in the state, unless we also lose to Utah st.



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S
Schmoe
Gunk wrote:
Since Gunk is such a big fan of throwing numbers out there, I did a little number crunching of my own. Looking at all division one programs, here's how both teams have stacked up since our new coaches got momentum going:



2006: Football-15 (top 7%) Basketball-No tourney appearance (N/A)

2007: Football-14 (top 6%) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)

2008: Football-21 (top 9%) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)

2009: Football-12 (top 5%) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)

2010: Football-Not Ranked (N/A) Basketball-Top 32 (top 9%)

2011: Football-25 (top 11%) Basketball-Top 16 (top 5%)

2012: Football-Not Yet Available (INC) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)



Average percentage in D-1: Football-top 15% Basketball-top 20%



Surprise, surprise, our football team is actually doing better under Bronco than our basketball team is doing under Rose (really, they're doing about the same, but the expectations are always higher for football, which is why we hear all the moaning and groaning from fans about football and fans like Jackhole just sit contentedly with what basketball is doing). And all this despite the feelings of some fans, weird.


Your numbers are off. There 119 football teams. A 15th ranking is top 12%.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">


You're right, my numbers are wrong, I calculated using 225 teams, but there are actually 241 Division 1 football teams. Our football numbers should be slightly better than listed above.
S
Schmoe
jacksonman wrote:
We lost to new Mexico right after Davies was suspended. Last year wad a rebuilding year for basketball. Getting outscored 80 to 60 in basketball is nothing like losing how we did to Florida st or Utah.


You're right, it is nothing like our football losses. Losing by 22 at home when you're ranked #3 in the country is worse.
J
jacksonman
Two days after losing our starting center and no real replacement. If our football team lost one fifth of their starters, those loses to utah and Florida state could be justifiable. I take that back. That Utah game is unjustifiable regardless.



Losing davies would be like losing our rb, center, def lineman, and safety at the same time.



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S
Schmoe
jacksonman wrote:
:~( Excuses :~(
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J
jacksonman
Losing Davies an excuse?



So what would you call all this justifying a 4 loss season before playing a down? Thi schedule as is right now isn't nearly as tough as you are making it to be.



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S
Schmoe
jacksonman wrote:
Losing Davies an excuse?



So what would you call all this justifying a 4 loss season before playing a down? Thi schedule as is right now isn't nearly as tough as you are making it to be.



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Have I justified losing 4 games? Have I made this season out to be tough? Please, show me where.
G
Gunk
Schmoe wrote:
Schmoe wrote:
Since Gunk is such a big fan of throwing numbers out there, I did a little number crunching of my own. Looking at all division one programs, here's how both teams have stacked up since our new coaches got momentum going:



2006: Football-15 (top 7%) Basketball-No tourney appearance (N/A)

2007: Football-14 (top 6%) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)

2008: Football-21 (top 9%) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)

2009: Football-12 (top 5%) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)

2010: Football-Not Ranked (N/A) Basketball-Top 32 (top 9%)

2011: Football-25 (top 11%) Basketball-Top 16 (top 5%)

2012: Football-Not Yet Available (INC) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)



Average percentage in D-1: Football-top 15% Basketball-top 20%



Surprise, surprise, our football team is actually doing better under Bronco than our basketball team is doing under Rose (really, they're doing about the same, but the expectations are always higher for football, which is why we hear all the moaning and groaning from fans about football and fans like Jackhole just sit contentedly with what basketball is doing). And all this despite the feelings of some fans, weird.


Your numbers are off. There 119 football teams. A 15th ranking is top 12%.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">


You're right, my numbers are wrong, I calculated using 225 teams, but there are actually 241 Division 1 football teams. Our football numbers should be slightly better than listed above.


FCS teams don't count. They aren't considered for bowls. FCS teams participate in their own post season tournament.



If an FCS team went undefeated, it still wouldn't get votes or a guarantee of a bowl invite. Certainly wouldn't appear on any BCS polls. In fact, it wasn't until this last August that the NCAA expanded bowl eligibility to include FCS teams under extreme conditions - essentially only if there are no other eligible FBS teams. So, BYU's 15th ranking really is just among 119 teams. Again, FCS teams weren't considered for the poll. Name the last time an FCS team appeared in the AP Top 25 or, more importantly, the Coaches Poll as its the poll that determines BCS bowl eligibility?



The mere fact a win against an FCS team may or may not depending on the circumstances count on the win record of an FBS team denotes the separation of the two divisions. You're essentially trying to count Triple AAA teams as MLB teams...doesn't work.



However, should Pepperdine or Iona or any other Division 1 basketball team put together an undefeated season they'd be ranked and headed to the NCAA tournament with all the other Division 1 teams.
G
Gunk
jacksonman wrote:
Two days after losing our starting center and no real replacement. If our football team lost one fifth of their starters, those loses to utah and Florida state could be justifiable. I take that back. That Utah game is unjustifiable regardless.



Losing davies would be like losing our rb, center, def lineman, and safety at the same time.



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I seem to recall losing our star RB one season and BYU becoming completely inept...
J
jacksonman
BYU was a final four team with Davies, and a Sweet Sixteen team without (and one point from being an elite 8 without). We are also loading up on recruits that appear to take BYU to new levels.



I guess some of us will have to agree to disagree.
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