Different expectations for Basketball and Football

Gunk wrote:

Gunk wrote:

Since Gunk is such a big fan of throwing numbers out there, I did a little number crunching of my own. Looking at all division one programs, here's how both teams have stacked up since our new coaches got momentum going:



2006: Football-15 (top 7%) Basketball-No tourney appearance (N/A)

2007: Football-14 (top 6%) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)

2008: Football-21 (top 9%) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)

2009: Football-12 (top 5%) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)

2010: Football-Not Ranked (N/A) Basketball-Top 32 (top 9%)

2011: Football-25 (top 11%) Basketball-Top 16 (top 5%)

2012: Football-Not Yet Available (INC) Basketball-Top 64 (top 19%)



Average percentage in D-1: Football-top 15% Basketball-top 20%



Surprise, surprise, our football team is actually doing better under Bronco than our basketball team is doing under Rose (really, they're doing about the same, but the expectations are always higher for football, which is why we hear all the moaning and groaning from fans about football and fans like Jackhole just sit contentedly with what basketball is doing). And all this despite the feelings of some fans, weird.

Your numbers are off. There 119 football teams. A 15th ranking is top 12%.



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You're right, my numbers are wrong, I calculated using 225 teams, but there are actually 241 Division 1 football teams. Our football numbers should be slightly better than listed above.

FCS teams don't count. They aren't considered for bowls. FCS teams participate in their own post season tournament.



If an FCS team went undefeated, it still wouldn't get votes or a guarantee of a bowl invite. Certainly wouldn't appear on any BCS polls. In fact, it wasn't until this last August that the NCAA expanded bowl eligibility to include FCS teams under extreme conditions - essentially only if there are no other eligible FBS teams. So, BYU's 15th ranking really is just among 119 teams. Again, FCS teams weren't considered for the poll. Name the last time an FCS team appeared in the AP Top 25 or, more importantly, the Coaches Poll as its the poll that determines BCS bowl eligibility?



The mere fact a win against an FCS team may or may not depending on the circumstances count on the win record of an FBS team denotes the separation of the two divisions. You're essentially trying to count Triple AAA teams as MLB teams...doesn't work.



However, should Pepperdine or Iona or any other Division 1 basketball team put together an undefeated season they'd be ranked and headed to the NCAA tournament with all the other Division 1 teams.

You can nitpick all you like, I'm simply counting all Division 1 teams just as you do for basketball. I'm sorry it doesn't fit your argument.

Eh, I'm kinda just jumpin' in on this and I haven't taken the time to read everything, but if the argument is whether the football team or the basketball team is headed more in the right direction...I'd have to agree with it being the basketball team.



Maybe I'm way off, but it just seems to me like generally speaking in the last couple years, the basketball team has gotten at least some of those big time outstanding wins, and the football team almost always fails to get those big wins against truly great teams. There just hasn't really been any wins for the BYU football team in the last few years where it was just like, wow - now that is a top tier team they beat! I don't know, maybe I'm just hard to please but I don't think you can pick out any wins from our football team in the last few years that would be comparable with those wins against ranked SDSU.



Anydang way, wasn't this article about Dalton Nixon? ;)

FurriousCougar wrote:
Eh, I'm kinda just jumpin' in on this and I haven't taken the time to read everything, but if the argument is whether the football team or the basketball team is headed more in the right direction...I'd have to agree with it being the basketball team.

It actually started as a discussion of which team the fans held to a higher standard and expected more of. Some of us are saying that the teams have done relatively equally, yet we only hear whining and complaining about football, so there are higher expectations for football. Others of us have been saying that basketball has simply done better/more, and that's the reason there's no whining about basketball, not that the fan expectations for the team are lower.

Since football and basketball are different sports, it really only makes sense to evaluate the coaches based on how they are doing with respect to their peers. Currently, Bronco Mendenhall is 8th among coaches with at least 5 seasons in win percentage. http://www.coacheshotseat.com/WinningestActiveCoachesIA.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Through 6 seasons (most current I could find), Dave Rose is 4th among active coaches (with a minimum of 5 years). If you add last year's results, Dave Rose drops to 77.4% (still would be in 4th place assuming that the coaches around him stayed at the same percentages).

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/2012/coaches.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is apparent that we have 2 very good coaches. We need to quit whining.

Bronco Mendenhall doesn't deserve near the heat that he gets. Dave Rose certainly doesn't deserve more heat.

Craig, can you change the name of the thread?



This has started to become a pretty piss-poor welcoming for Dalton :)



As a suggestion for an appropriate thread title I submit "Purposefully distorting numbers to back up your arguments"

Schmoe wrote:

Eh, I'm kinda just jumpin' in on this and I haven't taken the time to read everything, but if the argument is whether the football team or the basketball team is headed more in the right direction...I'd have to agree with it being the basketball team.

It actually started as a discussion of which team the fans held to a higher standard and expected more of. Some of us are saying that the teams have done relatively equally, yet we only hear whining and complaining about football, so there are higher expectations for football. Others of us have been saying that basketball has simply done better/more, and that's the reason there's no whining about basketball, not that the fan expectations for the team are lower.

BYU is a football first school hence greater interest in its success. Just look at CougarCorner, the volume of football to basketball posts is greatly tilted towards football. Geez...the most popular thread on the basketball forum right now is a thread that's been perverted by football.



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Split the topics, this one will be for discussion of the different expectations between the football and basketball programs.

Schmoe wrote:

Eh, I'm kinda just jumpin' in on this and I haven't taken the time to read everything, but if the argument is whether the football team or the basketball team is headed more in the right direction...I'd have to agree with it being the basketball team.

It actually started as a discussion of which team the fans held to a higher standard and expected more of. Some of us are saying that the teams have done relatively equally, yet we only hear whining and complaining about football, so there are higher expectations for football. Others of us have been saying that basketball has simply done better/more, and that's the reason there's no whining about basketball, not that the fan expectations for the team are lower.

I'd say it's a mix of both really. I'd say part of the problem as well is that most of the "progress" people are gonna be looking at is Bowl Games for football and how far we make it in the Big Dance for basketball. In basketball, it's much easier to at least get "a shot" - which we did - and made it to the sweet 16 for the first time in a long time - progress. As for football - well, unless you get a BCS bowl - which is tough to get - all you can really do is win some bowl game, which at the end of the day, BYU fans will be happy with, but it will just be another non BCS bowl win...so there maybe isn't equal opportunity for the two teams to live up the the expectations....to a degree.

FurriousCougar wrote:
Eh, I'm kinda just jumpin' in on this and I haven't taken the time to read everything, but if the argument is whether the football team or the basketball team is headed more in the right direction...I'd have to agree with it being the basketball team.



Maybe I'm way off, but it just seems to me like generally speaking in the last couple years, the basketball team has gotten at least some of those big time outstanding wins, and the football team almost always fails to get those big wins against truly great teams.

Which wins are you counting as "truly" great wins for the basketball team???

Utah, Boise and TCU all made into multiple BCS games or were at least in the discussion for bids after the last regular season game was played. Even Hawaii made it to BCS bowl game. BYU has never been in the discussion in any real season at the very end of the season in the Bronco era. We are a consistent 20-30 ranked program and need to be a consistent 10-15 program to really be in the discussion.



Making a weak BCS bowl game is comparable to winning a game in the NCAA tournament (a play0in game doesn't really count). Winning 2 games in the NCAA tournament is comparable to winning a weak BCS bowl game or getting into one of the more prestigious BCS bowl games against one of the better teams. Winning 3 NCAA tourny games is like winning one of the more prestigious BCS bowl games. Winning 4 or 5 games is like making the BCS finals and you can figure out the next step.

My expectation is much higher for football because we are in a position to recruit sufficient athletes to go all the way. 1 player does not make a team in this game so you have a better chance through teamwork and grit to win.



My expectation for basketball is lower for the same reason--we are not in a position to recruit top basketball talent. This is a jumping, dunking, athletic man's game and BYU cannot attract these kinds of players. Thanks to the NBA, basketball now has a thuggish, streetball attraction to it. Why would a kid with game come to BYU?



And 1 player can make all the difference in basketball so the odds are that a team that has 1 awesome player will beat us even if we have better average talent (see James Harden on ASU a couple years ago).



In my opinion the difference in expectation is fair because the makeup of each sport is so different.

The way I look at it the standard is national prominence.



For Football, it's a BCS bowl.



For basketball, it's a win or two in the NCAA tourney.



Why? Because at these points a team is playing on national television with the nation talking about these games. In football, it's the BCS games. Unless you're in a BCS bowl you're playing on cable televison and the only people that care about the game are the fans of either team. For basketball, the first rounds of the tournament are televised on national television so it is a national stage; however, it's not until the 2nd or 3rd round that people other than fans of a particular team care about a game.



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BroncoBot wrote:

Eh, I'm kinda just jumpin' in on this and I haven't taken the time to read everything, but if the argument is whether the football team or the basketball team is headed more in the right direction...I'd have to agree with it being the basketball team.



Maybe I'm way off, but it just seems to me like generally speaking in the last couple years, the basketball team has gotten at least some of those big time outstanding wins, and the football team almost always fails to get those big wins against truly great teams.

Which wins are you counting as "truly" great wins for the basketball team???

If you read the end of my post I reference the SDSU games.