Collinsworth on BYU return Dnews

mizzoucoug wrote:

Mars wrote:


There was really no point last year where Sharp looked like the clear-cut starter. He was always either #1 or #2 at his position, just good enough to get up hopes but not great enough to stand-out in many games.

Same with KC.



Only reason he stood out was because he was a freshman.



Sharp > Pre mission KC > Post mission KC



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

No, no, no. KC is a rebounding animal and is a legit slasher which is something nobody else on the team can do. Not even Haws consistently. KC is 100x more valuable than Sharp is and there's not even a question. Re-watch his freshman year again. I can't stand the fact that the kid has no outside shot at all, but he does have athletic ability and rebounded better than Davies did.



KC > Sharp

You sure about that?



Sharp averaged 18.5 min per game, 3.9 rebounds, 4.4 points, and shot 57% from the floor.



KC averaged 25.7 min per game, 5.1 rebounds, 5.8 points, and shot 48% from the floor.



At face value you could claim KC is the "better" player, a "rebounding machine," etc. However, when you look at their per minute production, Sharp is the better player.



Sharp produced 0.21 rebounds per min and 0.237 points per min.



KC produced 0.198 rebounds per min and 0.225 points per min.



Factor in Sharp shoots better from the floor, from the 3 point arc, and from the line and I really don't understand all the hype around KC.



Regarding KC's "slashing" ability, how many times did we see him slash to basket only to miss the layup. Fine, KC would get fouled but he'd then proceed to miss his free throws.



I seem to recall Sharp taking it to the hole quite a bit too. Had some nice dunks and put backs last season. Plus, when Sharp got fouled he proceeded to make his free throws.



KC = Overrated

While I agree KC is getting a little overrated. You need to compare a few things:



I believe KC was 18 when played and he will be 21 this year.



Sharp was 22 last year and he will 23 this year.



Sharp is a lot of things but he is not a shot creator.



KC can create decent shots but he hasn't shown the ability to finish them.



In the end we will need both of them this year but they will have very different roles.

In the end we will need both of them this year but they will have very different roles.[/quote]



This is a wise statement

Sharp disappeared during conference play.

KC as a freshman didnt diminish during conference play.

KC has a better chance of developing as a guard than Sharp does as a 4. I like Sharp, is athleticism, but his 165 pounds just ain't going to get it done at the four. If Haws could play the two and Sharp the 3 during some situations, tht would work better.

Gunk wrote:

Gunk wrote:

There was really no point last year where Sharp looked like the clear-cut starter. He was always either #1 or #2 at his position, just good enough to get up hopes but not great enough to stand-out in many games.

Same with KC.



Only reason he stood out was because he was a freshman.



Sharp > Pre mission KC > Post mission KC



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

No, no, no. KC is a rebounding animal and is a legit slasher which is something nobody else on the team can do. Not even Haws consistently. KC is 100x more valuable than Sharp is and there's not even a question. Re-watch his freshman year again. I can't stand the fact that the kid has no outside shot at all, but he does have athletic ability and rebounded better than Davies did.



KC > Sharp

You sure about that?



Sharp averaged 18.5 min per game, 3.9 rebounds, 4.4 points, and shot 57% from the floor.



KC averaged 25.7 min per game, 5.1 rebounds, 5.8 points, and shot 48% from the floor.



At face value you could claim KC is the "better" player, a "rebounding machine," etc. However, when you look at their per minute production, Sharp is the better player.



Sharp produced 0.21 rebounds per min and 0.237 points per min.



KC produced 0.198 rebounds per min and 0.225 points per min.



Factor in Sharp shoots better from the floor, from the 3 point arc, and from the line and I really don't understand all the hype around KC.



Regarding KC's "slashing" ability, how many times did we see him slash to basket only to miss the layup. Fine, KC would get fouled but he'd then proceed to miss his free throws.



I seem to recall Sharp taking it to the hole quite a bit too. Had some nice dunks and put backs last season. Plus, when Sharp got fouled he proceeded to make his free throws.



KC = Overrated

My recollection is that Sharp was MIA in the big games or simply didn't get playing time. The opposite was true for KC. We needed him out there against the top teams during the regular season. Then he filled in for Davies' rebounding as a 2/3 during the tourney. And he was excellent at it. KC over Sharp any day.

Been a few months since I've perused the board here. Enjoyed catching up on some of the bball threads.



This one caught my attention, and candidly doesn't seem like a very productive conversation because we're comparing apples and oranges here with Sharp and KC. Entirely different players.



But I'll throw in my two bucks anyway.



First of all, Gunk I think it'd be helpful for you to disclose the nature of your personal relationship with KC. I draw that assumption based on comments you made that an average fan who just watches games wouldn't be able to make, like "Collinsworth's mouth has a history of writing checks his skill level can't catch" and "Rose has a man crush, hope more talented players don't waste away" and "KC has an attitude" none of which were evident his freshman year in the media or on the court. Frankly it comes across as someone with an axe to grind, or someone related to a player on the bench behind KC, but I'll reserve judgment until I understand how you know him.



Second, I seriously don't understand why we're comparing these two players. Look at our roster for next year, and the # of quality guards/wings versus the number of post players.



https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsoXzrkkdQYudEVzZTFsOVl4VjMxWXdybklNV1JySnc#gid=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



We're incredibly light in the post, with two skinny injury prone role players and two true freshman. Sharp will not be playing the 3! He'll be needed at 4.



Also, I tend to shy away from player comparisons like this because I really hate it when message boards talk negatively about a player. I'm not saying we need to be all roses and sunshine all the time, but I just hate it when kids get singled out.



So I'll start by saying that Sharp has a place on the roster and has skills that benefit the team.



That said, KC has A LOT more to bring to the team. Let's compare...



High School - KC is the star of a great HS team and star of AAU team. Multiple offers from high major schools. Sharp is a role player on a great HS team that sends 6 or 7 guys to D1, but has no D1 offers after high school.



Freshman year - KC starts on a Sweet 16 team. Sharp is a redshirt walk-on for a struggling Utah team (that gave up 47 to Jimmer).



1st year Post mission - Sharp is a non-contributor first year at BYU (9 for 23 from the field all year). KC is _____ (we'll see, but I predict he starts and averages at least 10 ppg).



2nd year Post mission - Sharp has all the opportunity in the world to step up and contribute, but can't handle many matchups due to his frame and averages 18 mpg. KC will be an all-conference player.



Here's another comment about the stat comparison. Points per minute is not a meaningful comparison b/c KC played with a senior Jimmer Fredette (29 ppg), Jackson Emery, Brandon Davies, and Noah Hartsock. He was surrounded by scorers and was not expected to fill that role. But he has the capability (see HS stats). Look at how Tyler Haws, Davies, and Hartsock increased their numbers post-Jimmer as an example.



On the other hand, any scoring from Sharp last year was desperately needed. Our offense was often stagnant and struggling, and frankly I think we relied too heavily on Haws and he should be more of a 17 ppg guy versus the 21 ppg he had to score. But at any given time, we had 1 or 2 non-threats on offense and that made it difficult.



That to me is the biggest difference between the two players. KC fits in to an offense because he is a threat to drive, can handle the ball, pass, run the break, create angles, and just generally keep the offense fluid. Sharp is a guy who can catch and finish, or offensive rebound, and that's about it. He can't shoot (3 total 3-pointers in 2 years) with no real mid-range. Lacks the strength to give him the ball in the post, and lacks the ball-handling and quickness to get around anyone (please don't point to the two exceptions all season to refute this point).



Now certainly KC has his own flaws, which have been pointed out. He's not a threat to shoot, struggles to finish at times, and can't hit FT's. But he's 52% inside the arc and didn't make many of his mid-range type jumpers, so he hit a decent overall % at the rim.



Sharp's high FG% is due to the lack of degree of difficulty. If it's not an open layup, in general he wasn't shooting it.



As for the rebounding comparison, two points...



1) Rebounding is the REASON Sharp has a scholarship. It's his one key skill, and the way he's expected to contribute. Also, he plays a 4 versus a guard so should be in better position to rebound. He's also sent to crash on offense while the guards get back. So he SHOULD have a better rate than KC, but they're about the same.



2) When KC was called to play post after Davies went out, he pulled down 65 rebounds in his last 7 games. That's why fans are high on his rebounding ability. They have a similar nose for the ball, but KC has the strength to not get thrown around.



So again, in summary I'm glad we have both players. Sharp is a fine role player to have deeper on a roster, and has a good D1 skill (rebounding). I think he'll get 10-15 minutes a game the next few years and provide a little energy and hustle. You need those guys.



I understand the concern that KC gets a little too much hype given his freshman year production, but it's generally coming from people that know the game (like, well, Dave Rose). I've probably watched every single BYU bball game the past decade, and there are just certain guys that have intangibles that help you win games. They'll make the pass that leads to a pass, they make the hustle plays, they're in position on defense, and bottom line they are guys you want on your team to go to battle. KC is that kind of player, and frankly if he has a cocky attitude I say all the better. I want guys with the confidence to go and take on anyone, and I think that's what we'll see from him this year.



Can't wait.

I think this all got a bit out of hand. I don't think KC sucks, but I am a bit concerned that (i) he thinks he can get to the rim whenever he wants and doesn't need to worry about working on that part of his game when I remember him having difficulty finishing at the rim, and (ii) he's already being coronated by some as a "great" when he's yet to be proven as consistently good. Unhealthy expectations weren't terribly kind to Carlino last season as he struggled to find any semblence of consistency, and I see people setting the same table for KC this year.

This is what we know.



Sharp has been around a while and more recently. He has shown contribution - but inconsistent. He may have more upside than he has yet shown. But even on a team that needed a housecleaning - he failed to grab the brass ring. It was there to be grabbed.



KC was only around a year. No redshirt either iirc. It has been 2 years. He showed weaknesses and has not had a 2nd season to show whether he can improve and overcome those weaknesses. He did make some noise and showed versatility on a team that was loaded with experienced players including a future national POY - and had little opportunity to grab the brass ring because the brass ring already had 3 or 4 hands grabbing onto it.



KC will be rusty and out of shape. He will contribute. He will not be Jimmer. He probably will not yet as the more experienced Carlino.



I think the Carlino throng is getting to worked up about Rose mentioning the name KC and point guard in the same sentence.



BYU will field a very inexperienced team lacking depth in 2013. Set your expectations accordingly.



BTW - the lengthy post above is well written, fair, and balanced imho.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

I agree with Sno. In the KC to Sharp comparisons, as far as number production, we also need to keep in mind that KC was playing in the MWC, which was better at that time than most AQ conferences, and certainly better than all mid major conferences.



The WCC is statistically one of the worst conferences in the nation, when you take out the top 3 teams (Gonzaga, St Marys and BYU).



KC is a better player than Sharp. But I *do* like Sharp. The two are not mutually exclusive. I like his hustle and his work ethic. There are many games that could have gone a different way last season if we didn't get a 2nd or 3rd chance opportunity from Sharp tipping the ball out.

BlueIsBetter wrote:
The WCC is statistically one of the worst conferences in the nation, when you take out the top 3 teams (Gonzaga, St Marys and BYU).

#AntiFact

wisconsincougs wrote:

First of all, Gunk I think it'd be helpful for you to disclose the nature of your personal relationship with KC. I draw that assumption based on comments you made that an average fan who just watches games wouldn't be able to make, like "Collinsworth's mouth has a history of writing checks his skill level can't catch" and "Rose has a man crush, hope more talented players don't waste away" and "KC has an attitude" none of which were evident his freshman year in the media or on the court. Frankly it comes across as someone with an axe to grind, or someone related to a player on the bench behind KC, but I'll reserve judgment until I understand how you know him.

Never met him. But have heard all sorts about him from those that have met him and cocky is common adjective.



Now, I know it's an old video and he's certainly done some growing up, but look at his Mr Basketball video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpcDoxUC-6k" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Kid had/has attitude.



I seem to recall a few articles his freshman year with quotes that also affirmed his reputation. Look at the quote that started this thread:



"I have proven that at any level I can get to the hoop and finish on anybody. So I am just trying to get a consistent [outside] shot. So far, so good"



First, he hasn't "proven" anything. He's a sophomore. He played on a team stacked with talent. As Sno and others have pointed out, Collisnworth may have done a decent job of getting to the rim, but once there he missed a lot of those easy buckets. Nothing has been proven.



Second, he's only played at two levels - high school and college. So the notion that he's proven himself at "any level" is a bit...how do you say it...cocky.



Lastly, the idea that he can "finish on anybody" is cocky. Has he played Lebron? Did he finish on Lebron? What about Dwight Howard? Fine, what about Robert Sacre. I don't recall Collinsworth finishing on Sacre when he played against Sacre in the NCAA tourney.



Don't get me wrong. I'm fine with a player being a bit overly confident and even cocky as long as they can back it up, but so far KC hasn't "proven" anything.



As you and others have pointed out, KC played on a team dominated with veterans - Jimmer, Emery, Hartsock, Abouo, and Davies. Fine, he may not have gotten a solid handle on the brass ring as Bib points out, but the other side of that coin is KC excelled as a freshman in large part because opponents were worried about one extremely talented player on the court and 4 other legitimately good players.



I guarantee you no opponent was huddled in the locker room trying to figure out how to contain KC. Pretty sure KC wasn't even on the radar. He'll be on the radar now. When he went to the basket, opponents were busy worrying about where Noah, Davies or Jimmer were. When rebounding, I highly doubt the opponent dedicated a player to boxing him out at all times.



Carlino and Haws will not draw as much defensive pressure as Jimmer, Noah or Davies did. KC will be facing more defensive pressure than he faced as a freshman and he'll be doing it on RM legs.



I would love nothing more than for KC to back up his mouth with results. In the mean time, his results don't "prove" a thing.



No way KC is an all-conference player next season. Perhaps his Senior year.



Are we thin in the post. Yes, we are. So, does that mean KC will play in the post? Perhaps at the 4 where he subbed in for Davies and was a rebounding machine? That would certainly make sense. Doesn't Sharp play at the 4? In which case, comparing the two would be an apples to apples comparison.



Perhaps I am being a bit overtly critical of the guy. Then again, I was pretty critical of Heaps too...

Gunk. I think his point re apples and oranges was that Sharp will be needed at the 4 given the "thinness" of the depth chart and the "thinness" of the actual players. That is part of what makes Rose glow about KC. He could pitch in at the 4, but more likely will be used as a utility player pitching in wherever needed until his legs wear out.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

I'll say it again, we will need both of them regardless of who is better at what.

They likely won't be playing the same position so I don't get what the tussle is all about.



KC and Carlino are vying for the position, and I think that it is a mistake to play him at PG. Carlino is much, much, MUCH better from what I have seen.

BlueIsBetter wrote:
They likely won't be playing the same position so I don't get what the tussle is all about.



KC and Carlino are vying for the position, and I think that it is a mistake to play him at PG. Carlino is much, much, MUCH better from what I have seen.

KC shouldn't touch the ball at PG or SG. He's a 3.



KC's ball handling is atrocious.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

Personally, I am glad someone is pushing Carlino. Maybe the young lad will remember his role and take direction better. And, even the best players - Haws - need a blow once in a while.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

Gunk wrote:

They likely won't be playing the same position so I don't get what the tussle is all about.



KC and Carlino are vying for the position, and I think that it is a mistake to play him at PG. Carlino is much, much, MUCH better from what I have seen.

KC shouldn't touch the ball at PG or SG. He's a 3.



KC's ball handling is atrocious.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

I'll agree with this. He also shouldn't shoot the ball unless he's 10 feet out or closer. KC is the hybrid guard/slasher that we've been missing for some time now. I hope his game complements Haws'.

mizzoucoug wrote:

BlueIsBetter wrote:
They likely won't be playing the same position so I don't get what the tussle is all about.



KC and Carlino are vying for the position, and I think that it is a mistake to play him at PG. Carlino is much, much, MUCH better from what I have seen.

KC shouldn't touch the ball at PG or SG. He's a 3.



KC's ball handling is atrocious.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

I'll agree with this. He also shouldn't shoot the ball unless he's 10 feet out or closer. KC is the hybrid guard/slasher that we've been missing for some time now. I hope his game complements Haws'.

So, if I am fillowing you - he is the hybrid slasher we need even though you agreed with Blue that his ball handling skills are atrocious. Hipefully when he is slashing, he can either dribble or catch a pass in traffic.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

Cougarbib wrote:

Gunk wrote:

They likely won't be playing the same position so I don't get what the tussle is all about.



KC and Carlino are vying for the position, and I think that it is a mistake to play him at PG. Carlino is much, much, MUCH better from what I have seen.

KC shouldn't touch the ball at PG or SG. He's a 3.



KC's ball handling is atrocious.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

I'll agree with this. He also shouldn't shoot the ball unless he's 10 feet out or closer. KC is the hybrid guard/slasher that we've been missing for some time now. I hope his game complements Haws'.

So, if I am fillowing you - he is the hybrid slasher we need even though you agreed with Blue that his ball handling skills are atrocious. Hipefully when he is slashing, he can either dribble or catch a pass in traffic.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

I went against my better judgment and viewed your otherwise ignored post. Again, you don't know sports. You can be a poor ball handler and still be a slasher. Take a pass off a cut, boom, one dribble (or none), shoot, score. Or from the high post, shake 'n bake, one dribble and you're at the rim.



A "ball handler" is someone who is often exposed to tight defensive pressure at the top of the key and in constant danger of being pick-pocketed for an easy 2. That will not be KC because he can't handle that pressure. However, at closer spots on the floor he will only need a couple dribbles at most to have an impact.

You, my friend, don't know ENGLISH. Look up ATROCIOUS. Hyperbole much. I would not throw a hard pass to someone making a cut into traffic and expect them to dribble it twice, pick it up in traffic, and take it up to the rim, if their ball handling skills were attrocious. Average. Maybe. Mediocre. Probably not. Poor. No. Attrocious. Definitely not.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">