Collinsworth on BYU return Dnews

Cougarbib wrote:
You, my friend, don't know ENGLISH. Look up ATROCIOUS. Hyperbole much. I would not throw a hard pass to someone making a cut into traffic and expect them to dribble it twice, pick it up in traffic, and take it up to the rim, if their ball handling skills were attrocious. Average. Maybe. Mediocre. Probably not. Poor. No. Attrocious. Definitely not.



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Split hairs much? In the context I described (under pressure at a vulnerable spot on the floor), yes, he has proven to be atrocious. Ball handling as a slasher is different. Try sports, you might like them. I'm done with you.

Cougarbib wrote:

Gunk wrote:

They likely won't be playing the same position so I don't get what the tussle is all about.



KC and Carlino are vying for the position, and I think that it is a mistake to play him at PG. Carlino is much, much, MUCH better from what I have seen.

KC shouldn't touch the ball at PG or SG. He's a 3.



KC's ball handling is atrocious.



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I'll agree with this. He also shouldn't shoot the ball unless he's 10 feet out or closer. KC is the hybrid guard/slasher that we've been missing for some time now. I hope his game complements Haws'.

So, if I am fillowing you - he is the hybrid slasher we need even though you agreed with Blue that his ball handling skills are atrocious. Hipefully when he is slashing, he can either dribble or catch a pass in traffic.



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Anyone with basic dribbling skills can beat a single defender and "slash" to the basket - all it takes is a good first step and an open lane. That was KC's MO his freshman year and he excelled at it in part because he had a good first step and defenses were busy worrying about Jimmer, not a freshman from Provo.



It's a completely different thing to be able to handle the ball, particularly as a PG. A PG will receive the most on-ball pressure. He'll often be double teamed and opponents will constantly seek to trap him. A good PG needs to have the ability to beat the pressure off the dribble. While worrying about all this, the PG also must be conscious of where everyone else is on the court and be able to make the right call that will yield the highest result. That's ball handling. KC can't handle the ball.



At the beginning of his freshman year, Rose toyed with KC bringing the ball up. After constantly getting trapped, Rose abandoned the idea. Anytime KC put the ball on the floor with his back to the basket he either got picked or got trapped. His ball handling was atrocious and I highly doubt it got better while not playing basketball for two years.

I know the difference between a 1 and a 3 and the substantial difference in ball handling skills needed. I also know that anybody can get double teamed and that defenses collapse down when slashers slash - they do not always enjoy a wide open lane.



My point is merely this:



Look up the word atrocious. Then post the definition here.



And, unfortunately, BYU does not have a PG with more than average point guard ball handling skills. KC has mediocre point guard ball handling skills at best - maybe even poor.



Look up atrocious.



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Atrocious: shockingly bad or tasteless; dreadful; abominable: an atrocious painting; atrocious manners



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Cbib, you are losing this one. There is a big difference between being the one that brings the ball downcourt and being a wing player.



You don't need good ball handling skills to be a wing player. THe more you have, the better obviously, but it is unnecessary. As a PG you need good ball handling skills. As in, handling the ball. Doing a jab step to get your man off guard, dribbling once and taking it strong to the (2 steps) has NOTHING to do with ball handling.



You look silly trying to force a lost argument on semantics.

When I was at UMKC, Coach Bob Sunvold brought in a recruit named Matt Frieje 6'9"... skinny as a rail. I was getting paid to assist in recruiting at the time and Kansas City was chock full of studs (which doesn't happen a lot). To make my point, there so many studs(all the Rush, Jaron, Kareem brothers, Nick Robinson, Wayne Simien, Korleone Young (considered the #1 player in the country) in KC high school hoops that Tyronn Lue was considered a nobody and ended up at Nebraska (later played 10+ years in the NBA won some rings with the Lakers and is now an asst coach in the league).



I was almost always spot on with recruits, but I didn't particularly like Frieje. I didn't think he had a chance in the post and I didn't think he had the skills of a 3. But he would show up from time to time and just play with the team during pickup games.



I asked some of the team what they thought of Frieje, and their response was that he wasn't worth recruiting................... because he was too good to come to UMKC and would end up someday playing in the pros. They were right, he played in the NBA for 5+ years and was a stud in college. I didn't see it, but they played with him and they saw all the intangibles and potential that I couldn't just eyeballing the guy in games.



This is the same case for Collinsworth. Ask the players on the team, ask the coaches. Why are they so high on him? Why do the players already consider him the 3rd best guard on the team? Why is he on the winning side of so many pickup games with the team, etc.? Because he is and will be really really good. The players see it and they know it exists. We see a 6'7" white freshman that has no business at the point and assume that he can't handle the ball in big time D1 hoops, the team sees differently. We see a guy that struggles with his J, so how could be possibly be a game changer? The team sees differently.



The players from BYU and locally that play ball with Kyle all sing his praises, the coaches are all excited about him... so how about we wait to see what the product is, rather than make assumptions that I believe are going to be disproven. I remember a day when certain posters here called Charles Abouo and Noah Hartsock garbage... boy did we miss them last year. Hartsock was quit possibly one of the top 10 most productive players and possibly one of the most efficient players in BYU history. Abouo was so unappreciated, until we had no one at the 2 that could lock down the other teams 2 last year. Abouo is still the only player I've seen lock down and frustrate James Harden (and in a game Abouo won for us, if the Pac 12 refs had been honest). Kyle Collinsworth is legit... just you wait and see. The players would laugh themselves to death if you compared Josh Sharp and KC. Completely different players.



Being from Kansas, I know a thing or two about the Jayhawks... Bill Self offered Kyle... that's almost all I need to know right there.

BTW - I said 2 years ago that Brandon Davies would sign with an NBA team. I don't' love his game, but I knew someone would take a flier on him because he can run the floor and is a pretty nifty passer for a big man. (It's good for BYU too, we need to show that we can get bigs paid... Arajuo might have been a bust in the league but he easily made $5 million, Trent Plaisted has made a few million+ and is still playing in Europe, and Brandon getting signed into the NBA means that Europe will pay him millions as soon as they can grab him out of the league... we need to keep that train rolling on big men getting paid.)

craigoscarson wrote:
BTW - I said 2 years ago that Brandon Davies would sign with an NBA team. I don't' love his game, but I knew someone would take a flier on him because he can run the floor and is a pretty nifty passer for a big man. (It's good for BYU too, we need to show that we can get bigs paid... Arajuo might have been a bust in the league but he easily made $5 million, Trent Plaisted has made a few million+ and is still playing in Europe, and Brandon getting signed into the NBA means that Europe will pay him millions as soon as they can grab him out of the league... we need to keep that train rolling on big men getting paid.)

I not only am interested in your opinion I want to thank you for discussing basketball instead arguing about a word. I agree that playing the game replaces opinion.

BlueIsBetter wrote:
Cbib, you are losing this one. There is a big difference between being the one that brings the ball downcourt and being a wing player.



You don't need good ball handling skills to be a wing player. THe more you have, the better obviously, but it is unnecessary. As a PG you need good ball handling skills. As in, handling the ball. Doing a jab step to get your man off guard, dribbling once and taking it strong to the (2 steps) has NOTHING to do with ball handling.



You look silly trying to force a lost argument on semantics.

Nearly as silly as you look using the word atrocious. Hyperbole as usual.



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Cougarbib wrote:

Cbib, you are losing this one. There is a big difference between being the one that brings the ball downcourt and being a wing player.



You don't need good ball handling skills to be a wing player. THe more you have, the better obviously, but it is unnecessary. As a PG you need good ball handling skills. As in, handling the ball. Doing a jab step to get your man off guard, dribbling once and taking it strong to the (2 steps) has NOTHING to do with ball handling.



You look silly trying to force a lost argument on semantics.

Nearly as silly as you look using the word atrocious. Hyperbole as usual.



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I didn't use the word atrocious in this thread. You are clueless, as usual.